1 00:00:17,090 --> 00:00:09,089 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:17,100 --> 00:00:22,330 haha 3 00:00:28,940 --> 00:00:25,130 hello and welcome to the skeptic zone 4 00:00:32,390 --> 00:00:28,950 episode number 262 on the twenty-seventh 5 00:00:35,390 --> 00:00:32,400 of october2013 Richard Saunders here 6 00:00:38,410 --> 00:00:35,400 with you from Sydney Australia and thank 7 00:00:43,220 --> 00:00:38,420 goodness one think the firefighters ah 8 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:43,230 that the fires are if not out at least 9 00:00:48,170 --> 00:00:45,210 they're under control here's those 10 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:48,180 terrible wildfires to the west of Sydney 11 00:00:53,270 --> 00:00:50,250 and other places around the state of New 12 00:00:56,119 --> 00:00:53,280 South Wales are under control we'll be 13 00:00:58,100 --> 00:00:56,129 discussing those a little bit later in 14 00:01:01,189 --> 00:00:58,110 today's episode in the think tank yes 15 00:01:02,990 --> 00:01:01,199 it's the return of the think tank but 16 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:03,000 joining me in the think tank a dr. 17 00:01:09,260 --> 00:01:06,210 Richie Joe and Ben abou and Marco spin 18 00:01:12,670 --> 00:01:09,270 amoo Iran sir give and our guest 19 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:12,680 Margaret and Tate will be discussing 20 00:01:17,780 --> 00:01:15,690 climate change sort of topics also the 21 00:01:20,060 --> 00:01:17,790 recent appearance of Merrill Dory from 22 00:01:22,870 --> 00:01:20,070 the Australian vaccination Network yes 23 00:01:26,420 --> 00:01:22,880 those zany wacky people are at it again 24 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:26,430 she was recently on national TV and dr. 25 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:28,290 Richie has something to say about that I 26 00:01:34,910 --> 00:01:30,570 can promise you and Joe and Ben amoo 27 00:01:36,620 --> 00:01:34,920 will be talking about chiropractic the 28 00:01:38,870 --> 00:01:36,630 return of the think tank that's coming 29 00:01:40,100 --> 00:01:38,880 up later in the show but to kick off the 30 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:40,110 show we have an interview with a 31 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:43,890 Norwegian author guna Chumlee who I hope 32 00:01:48,620 --> 00:01:46,290 I said that right who will be telling us 33 00:01:51,650 --> 00:01:48,630 all about his new book the placebo 34 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:51,660 defect all about placebo and how it 35 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:53,730 works or it appears to work and all 36 00:01:59,120 --> 00:01:57,090 sorts of things relating to that it's 37 00:02:00,650 --> 00:01:59,130 good if your Norwegian you can read his 38 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:00,660 book I hope it'll be coming out in 39 00:02:04,100 --> 00:02:02,010 English anyway it's a fascinating 40 00:02:06,910 --> 00:02:04,110 interview all about this very 41 00:02:09,949 --> 00:02:06,920 interesting part of medicine and 42 00:02:11,839 --> 00:02:09,959 psychology only a few weeks to go now 43 00:02:13,009 --> 00:02:11,849 until the Australian skeptics National 44 00:02:16,009 --> 00:02:13,019 Convention and I must say 45 00:02:18,399 --> 00:02:16,019 congratulations to Lauren and Amanda in 46 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:18,409 Canberra who have recently joined the 47 00:02:22,940 --> 00:02:20,970 the committee the camera skeptics 48 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:22,950 committee congratulations ladies I'm 49 00:02:26,809 --> 00:02:24,170 sure you'll make a wonderful 50 00:02:28,580 --> 00:02:26,819 contribution can't wait to see you too 51 00:02:31,250 --> 00:02:28,590 when we come down to Canberra for the 52 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:31,260 convention to get those last tickets and 53 00:02:33,860 --> 00:02:33,090 what fun we're going to have visit 54 00:02:36,920 --> 00:02:33,870 National 55 00:02:39,259 --> 00:02:36,930 Epic's convention dot org snap up those 56 00:02:41,690 --> 00:02:39,269 last tickets and join us for a weekend 57 00:02:44,089 --> 00:02:41,700 of skepticism and magic and fun and 58 00:02:48,170 --> 00:02:44,099 spoon bending and all sorts of things 59 00:02:50,180 --> 00:02:48,180 that's the 22nd to the 24th of November 60 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:50,190 can't wait to see dr. Paul well is there 61 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:52,290 of course and speaking of poor Willis of 62 00:02:56,149 --> 00:02:53,730 course in this week's episode we have 63 00:02:59,089 --> 00:02:56,159 the ever-popular weaken science from the 64 00:03:01,640 --> 00:02:59,099 Royal Institution of Australia what 65 00:03:05,420 --> 00:03:01,650 would we do without a week in science 66 00:03:06,979 --> 00:03:05,430 now if you visit www.ypd zone TV might 67 00:03:08,869 --> 00:03:06,989 have noticed we've got a little 68 00:03:11,030 --> 00:03:08,879 thermometer going from Maynard did help 69 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:11,040 cover his hotel room because Maynard is 70 00:03:16,009 --> 00:03:13,370 coming to Maryland with us to cover the 71 00:03:19,539 --> 00:03:16,019 convention lots of interviews lots of 72 00:03:21,860 --> 00:03:19,549 insights and maynard's usual craziness 73 00:03:23,630 --> 00:03:21,870 but we do need a little bit of help to 74 00:03:25,970 --> 00:03:23,640 cover his hotel room so he can bring you 75 00:03:28,309 --> 00:03:25,980 many many weeks of interesting 76 00:03:31,220 --> 00:03:28,319 interviews and insights from his point 77 00:03:32,809 --> 00:03:31,230 of view now you can just chip in which 78 00:03:34,430 --> 00:03:32,819 is really wonderful and some people have 79 00:03:38,059 --> 00:03:34,440 been doing that very grateful I'm very 80 00:03:41,780 --> 00:03:38,069 grateful of course or you may wish to 81 00:03:43,670 --> 00:03:41,790 bid on the skeptics own poster which is 82 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:43,680 up for auction at the moment if your 83 00:03:49,490 --> 00:03:47,010 visit w WC bigs on TV have a look right 84 00:03:51,970 --> 00:03:49,500 at the top of the page well almost is a 85 00:03:55,309 --> 00:03:51,980 link to the ebay bid and a photograph of 86 00:03:58,869 --> 00:03:55,319 myself around so give joanne been a 87 00:04:01,550 --> 00:03:58,879 moose stefan soika dr. H E and Maynard 88 00:04:04,069 --> 00:04:01,560 during a recording the think tank all 89 00:04:06,289 --> 00:04:04,079 our autographs are there it's a really 90 00:04:07,729 --> 00:04:06,299 nice photograph sort of looks like it 91 00:04:09,949 --> 00:04:07,739 was taken in the TARDIS it's a bit 92 00:04:12,319 --> 00:04:09,959 strange but there you go have a look you 93 00:04:14,150 --> 00:04:12,329 can bid on that off if you want but if 94 00:04:17,150 --> 00:04:14,160 you do want to help out would be very 95 00:04:19,159 --> 00:04:17,160 grateful or as some people do you may 96 00:04:22,099 --> 00:04:19,169 wish to subscribe to the skeptic zone 97 00:04:24,379 --> 00:04:22,109 for less than a dollar a week well 98 00:04:27,170 --> 00:04:24,389 that's enough of me at the moment maybe 99 00:04:29,810 --> 00:04:27,180 a few more things to say at the end of 100 00:04:33,830 --> 00:04:29,820 the show but now it's time for me to run 101 00:04:38,740 --> 00:04:33,840 downstairs run downstairs open the 102 00:04:43,330 --> 00:04:38,750 fridge hmm I wonder if there's any of 103 00:04:45,770 --> 00:04:43,340 yesterday's curried chickpeas left 104 00:04:47,230 --> 00:04:45,780 curried chickpeas that's the key word 105 00:04:49,629 --> 00:04:47,240 this week folks 106 00:04:52,779 --> 00:04:49,639 all those people who write to me saying 107 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:52,789 that they try to match in their fridge 108 00:05:00,339 --> 00:04:56,210 what I have in mind mmm good luck 109 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:00,349 curried chickpeas well I do that I hope 110 00:05:28,980 --> 00:05:26,340 well joining me now all the way from 111 00:05:30,870 --> 00:05:28,990 beautiful Norway on door way I was only 112 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:30,880 there in april and i fell in love with 113 00:05:35,010 --> 00:05:33,250 the place must go back again must go 114 00:05:38,420 --> 00:05:35,020 back again is the author of a new book 115 00:05:41,670 --> 00:05:38,430 called in english the placebo defect 116 00:05:45,870 --> 00:05:41,680 please welcome to the skeptic zone guna 117 00:05:47,730 --> 00:05:45,880 children hello hello I'm sorry if I've 118 00:05:51,780 --> 00:05:47,740 got your name completely wrong they're 119 00:05:54,270 --> 00:05:51,790 not my Norwegian is not the best it's 120 00:05:55,890 --> 00:05:54,280 not a quite okay I'm pleased to hear it 121 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:55,900 now you've written an interesting book 122 00:05:59,490 --> 00:05:57,130 and you've done some research obviously 123 00:06:02,100 --> 00:05:59,500 into the placebo effect and this is 124 00:06:05,550 --> 00:06:02,110 really one of the most interesting 125 00:06:08,970 --> 00:06:05,560 things that a skeptic can come across or 126 00:06:11,430 --> 00:06:08,980 study because it's sort of int as many 127 00:06:13,650 --> 00:06:11,440 areas not only alternative medicine but 128 00:06:16,590 --> 00:06:13,660 certainly it's a way of thinking and 129 00:06:19,500 --> 00:06:16,600 it's a way of feeling that something has 130 00:06:23,370 --> 00:06:19,510 happened what inspired you to write 131 00:06:26,130 --> 00:06:23,380 about the placebo effect well the book 132 00:06:28,710 --> 00:06:26,140 isn't only about the placebo effect what 133 00:06:32,490 --> 00:06:28,720 I'm trying to explain in the book is why 134 00:06:35,550 --> 00:06:32,500 people experience that treatments that 135 00:06:39,510 --> 00:06:35,560 don't work why the experience that they 136 00:06:41,610 --> 00:06:39,520 do work and so try to go into the 137 00:06:45,210 --> 00:06:41,620 psychology of that and the placebo 138 00:06:48,390 --> 00:06:45,220 effect is of course one of many effects 139 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:48,400 that make you feel something works but 140 00:06:53,340 --> 00:06:49,930 it could also be a memory the illusion 141 00:06:55,260 --> 00:06:53,350 of remembering things as closer together 142 00:07:00,240 --> 00:06:55,270 in time that they actually then they 143 00:07:02,130 --> 00:07:00,250 actually were and many things I find it 144 00:07:04,890 --> 00:07:02,140 very interesting to try to really 145 00:07:07,890 --> 00:07:04,900 understand why someone can use a 146 00:07:09,630 --> 00:07:07,900 treatment like homeopathy and feel that 147 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:09,640 it really worked for them just try to 148 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:12,970 explain why that might be an illusion 149 00:07:17,790 --> 00:07:15,730 and why that might not be any proof that 150 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:17,800 it actually works even though it feels 151 00:07:22,980 --> 00:07:20,410 as if it works it certainly does and 152 00:07:25,020 --> 00:07:22,990 this is something of course that we come 153 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:25,030 across in many aspects of skeptical 154 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:29,170 thinking and it's often the case when 155 00:07:32,559 --> 00:07:31,210 somebody thinks something has really 156 00:07:36,579 --> 00:07:32,569 worked for 157 00:07:39,820 --> 00:07:36,589 that it's almost impossible it's almost 158 00:07:41,199 --> 00:07:39,830 impossible to convince them otherwise to 159 00:07:44,109 --> 00:07:41,209 make them see that maybe it hasn't 160 00:07:46,269 --> 00:07:44,119 worked at all and I guess homeopathy is 161 00:07:48,879 --> 00:07:46,279 one of the best examples that you can 162 00:07:52,149 --> 00:07:48,889 find what other treatments do you look 163 00:07:54,579 --> 00:07:52,159 at what I didn't want to write the new 164 00:07:57,159 --> 00:07:54,589 trick or treatment book so I'm not I I 165 00:08:00,399 --> 00:07:57,169 don't really go into very many different 166 00:08:02,499 --> 00:08:00,409 alternative treatments but I have I have 167 00:08:04,209 --> 00:08:02,509 gone quite extensively into three 168 00:08:07,029 --> 00:08:04,219 different treatments and that's 169 00:08:08,889 --> 00:08:07,039 homeopathy because that's at one end of 170 00:08:11,859 --> 00:08:08,899 the spectre which is kind of more like 171 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:11,869 religion or just pure magic and then you 172 00:08:16,869 --> 00:08:14,330 have a few puncture which I place kind 173 00:08:20,499 --> 00:08:16,879 of in the middle because it's even 174 00:08:23,469 --> 00:08:20,509 though it probably doesn't work and it's 175 00:08:26,259 --> 00:08:23,479 been what you call it it's it's a bit 176 00:08:29,019 --> 00:08:26,269 inside the Norwegian healthcare met some 177 00:08:31,059 --> 00:08:29,029 doctors use it and they use it when for 178 00:08:34,079 --> 00:08:31,069 pregnant women who are giving childbirth 179 00:08:37,149 --> 00:08:34,089 and things and then you also have 180 00:08:39,670 --> 00:08:37,159 chiropractic which in norway isn't 181 00:08:41,499 --> 00:08:39,680 regarded as alternative at all it's just 182 00:08:44,949 --> 00:08:41,509 like people most people think it's like 183 00:08:48,100 --> 00:08:44,959 and physical therapy is just the 184 00:08:52,269 --> 00:08:48,110 ordinary medicine so I went into depth 185 00:08:55,210 --> 00:08:52,279 of those three treatments and I think 186 00:08:59,290 --> 00:08:55,220 people who read the book will will and 187 00:09:01,480 --> 00:08:59,300 maybe have some what you call it in 188 00:09:06,970 --> 00:09:01,490 English in a wage and we call it a ha 189 00:09:08,259 --> 00:09:06,980 experience we you probably will learn 190 00:09:09,999 --> 00:09:08,269 something that you didn't really know 191 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:10,009 about acupuncture and maybe also 192 00:09:15,220 --> 00:09:12,290 chiropractic that's a good expression 193 00:09:17,470 --> 00:09:15,230 aha I think maybe the closest one I can 194 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:17,480 think of is we say the penny drops I 195 00:09:22,300 --> 00:09:20,050 don't know if your family or that 196 00:09:24,970 --> 00:09:22,310 realization well that I think you've 197 00:09:27,610 --> 00:09:24,980 picked three of the biggest ones in 198 00:09:31,210 --> 00:09:27,620 Western society homeopathy of course is 199 00:09:34,269 --> 00:09:31,220 very big acupuncture in Australia to is 200 00:09:37,809 --> 00:09:34,279 very big but I find chiropractic is very 201 00:09:40,889 --> 00:09:37,819 interesting because like in Norway in 202 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:40,899 Australia most people regard 203 00:09:45,610 --> 00:09:43,730 chiropractic as mainstream and they 204 00:09:47,180 --> 00:09:45,620 don't really know they haven't learned 205 00:09:51,170 --> 00:09:47,190 yet 206 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:51,180 it's shaky it's very shaky foundations 207 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:55,090 so were you involved with the talking to 208 00:10:01,110 --> 00:09:56,410 people who had gone through these 209 00:10:02,940 --> 00:10:01,120 treatments a little bit of research is 210 00:10:05,010 --> 00:10:02,950 to try to find out how people have been 211 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:05,020 to a chiropractor actually experienced 212 00:10:10,050 --> 00:10:07,810 it but the most important things that 213 00:10:12,450 --> 00:10:10,060 people find when reading the chapter by 214 00:10:15,090 --> 00:10:12,460 chiropractic is firstly there isn't any 215 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:15,100 good evidence that it actually works for 216 00:10:22,770 --> 00:10:18,850 two main and treatments lower back pain 217 00:10:24,150 --> 00:10:22,780 and neck pain which will surprise many I 218 00:10:26,430 --> 00:10:24,160 think but don't think so really just 219 00:10:28,940 --> 00:10:26,440 they just expected to work because I 220 00:10:31,530 --> 00:10:28,950 heard so many people that experiences 221 00:10:33,930 --> 00:10:31,540 that I've experienced that it works and 222 00:10:38,730 --> 00:10:33,940 also that you have quite a lot of 223 00:10:41,580 --> 00:10:38,740 serious side effects and people actually 224 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:41,590 can die from having a chiropractic 225 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:45,370 adjustment especially of the neck so and 226 00:10:48,390 --> 00:10:47,410 I also what was quite interesting is 227 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:48,400 when I started writing about 228 00:10:54,540 --> 00:10:50,530 chiropractic I I started writing that 229 00:10:57,150 --> 00:10:54,550 you know and the origins it was used 230 00:10:59,130 --> 00:10:57,160 they talked about these subluxation and 231 00:11:01,350 --> 00:10:59,140 stuff and it's quite magical it's the 232 00:11:03,660 --> 00:11:01,360 life energy or life force cover your 233 00:11:05,460 --> 00:11:03,670 spine and things and I was going to 234 00:11:07,650 --> 00:11:05,470 write that but in norway norwegian 235 00:11:09,300 --> 00:11:07,660 chiropractors don't believe this anymore 236 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:09,310 and they only treat you know like 237 00:11:15,990 --> 00:11:14,050 muscular skillet and skeleton pains but 238 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:16,000 when i started doing some google 239 00:11:20,190 --> 00:11:17,890 searches and reading the websites of 240 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:20,200 norwegian chiropractors actually found a 241 00:11:26,940 --> 00:11:22,450 few that still talk about subluxation 242 00:11:30,030 --> 00:11:26,950 and people who actively reject vaccines 243 00:11:31,380 --> 00:11:30,040 they and they tell people don't get 244 00:11:34,980 --> 00:11:31,390 vaccinated because it's dangerous 245 00:11:38,250 --> 00:11:34,990 chemicals and stuff and they kind of 246 00:11:40,290 --> 00:11:38,260 they they tell people not to use 247 00:11:43,310 --> 00:11:40,300 ordinary medicine because it's dangerous 248 00:11:46,380 --> 00:11:43,320 so that shocked me a bit that it was so 249 00:11:49,670 --> 00:11:46,390 it of course it doesn't met most 250 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:49,680 chiropractors I think in all we r RM and 251 00:11:54,330 --> 00:11:52,810 they liked scientific evidence even 252 00:11:56,730 --> 00:11:54,340 though there isn't so much to support 253 00:11:59,250 --> 00:11:56,740 chiropractics they at least try to give 254 00:12:01,260 --> 00:11:59,260 the impression that that's important 255 00:12:04,670 --> 00:12:01,270 but then you have also a subgroup that 256 00:12:07,740 --> 00:12:04,680 that I completely identity that rejects 257 00:12:09,420 --> 00:12:07,750 scientific based medicine isn't that 258 00:12:12,690 --> 00:12:09,430 interesting because out I think that's 259 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:12,700 more or less the situation here as well 260 00:12:20,220 --> 00:12:15,090 there are certainly many chiropractors 261 00:12:24,990 --> 00:12:20,230 operating in Australia who do go into 262 00:12:28,410 --> 00:12:25,000 the hole subluxation way of thinking and 263 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:28,420 a lot of chiropractors sadly aren't 264 00:12:34,050 --> 00:12:32,290 supporting of vaccinations and well it 265 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:34,060 must be difficult for the chiropractors 266 00:12:38,580 --> 00:12:36,370 out there who think that you know all 267 00:12:40,740 --> 00:12:38,590 that is is not safe and not good and 268 00:12:43,590 --> 00:12:40,750 rubbish and concentrate mainly on just 269 00:12:46,140 --> 00:12:43,600 trying to give good massages and fix 270 00:12:49,170 --> 00:12:46,150 people's pain in their lower back it's a 271 00:12:51,780 --> 00:12:49,180 very interesting area and in this 272 00:12:54,180 --> 00:12:51,790 country especially lately there's been a 273 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:54,190 lot of controversy because there's been 274 00:12:59,520 --> 00:12:56,050 reports of a baby you had their neck 275 00:13:01,650 --> 00:12:59,530 damage with a chiropractor and our good 276 00:13:03,570 --> 00:13:01,660 friend dr. Rachel Dunlop has exposed 277 00:13:06,930 --> 00:13:03,580 some chiropractors who would you know 278 00:13:08,670 --> 00:13:06,940 promoting anti-vaccination and again 279 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:08,680 just getting back to this whole placebo 280 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:11,170 area when somebody goes into a 281 00:13:14,970 --> 00:13:12,970 chiropractor or an acupuncturist and 282 00:13:16,710 --> 00:13:14,980 they have a procedure done and there's 283 00:13:19,860 --> 00:13:16,720 somebody in a white coat and they spend 284 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:19,870 time with them I'm not surprised when 285 00:13:28,140 --> 00:13:23,770 they leave the office that they report 286 00:13:31,950 --> 00:13:28,150 feeling better yeah absolutely and what 287 00:13:34,050 --> 00:13:31,960 I've tried to run to focus on in my book 288 00:13:36,030 --> 00:13:34,060 is that the placebo effect is it just 289 00:13:37,980 --> 00:13:36,040 something used to explain away the 290 00:13:41,250 --> 00:13:37,990 effect of alternative treatments the 291 00:13:45,540 --> 00:13:41,260 placebo effect is present at all kind of 292 00:13:48,780 --> 00:13:45,550 treatments even surgery so I give some 293 00:13:51,210 --> 00:13:48,790 examples from surgeries that have been 294 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:51,220 done earlier or surgical procedures that 295 00:13:55,620 --> 00:13:53,530 used to be done and when they tested 296 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:55,630 them in a controlled way they found that 297 00:13:59,940 --> 00:13:57,610 the effect actually was just a placebo 298 00:14:02,430 --> 00:13:59,950 effect and then they have stopped using 299 00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:02,440 those surgical treatments so I try to 300 00:14:07,590 --> 00:14:05,110 explain how this is a component of all 301 00:14:10,140 --> 00:14:07,600 kinds of treatments but the difference 302 00:14:12,319 --> 00:14:10,150 between what we call school medicine in 303 00:14:15,049 --> 00:14:12,329 Norway which is quite a bad word but 304 00:14:17,359 --> 00:14:15,059 a conventional medicine what what you 305 00:14:21,189 --> 00:14:17,369 want to call it and alternative medicine 306 00:14:23,989 --> 00:14:21,199 is that we actually try to eliminate the 307 00:14:26,210 --> 00:14:23,999 specific treatment effects like the 308 00:14:30,169 --> 00:14:26,220 placebo effects to find the real 309 00:14:32,059 --> 00:14:30,179 therapeutic effects that's the the big 310 00:14:34,069 --> 00:14:32,069 difference in thinking that we 311 00:14:36,139 --> 00:14:34,079 acknowledge that there is an app little 312 00:14:38,119 --> 00:14:36,149 [\h__\h] perfect and that's all well and 313 00:14:40,759 --> 00:14:38,129 good if you can use it as a bonus effect 314 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:40,769 but you can't base your treatment only 315 00:14:45,439 --> 00:14:43,170 on that and then many people ask okay 316 00:14:47,419 --> 00:14:45,449 why not why if people feel better why 317 00:14:51,259 --> 00:14:47,429 why isn't the placebo effect good enough 318 00:14:54,590 --> 00:14:51,269 and I used the last the part of my book 319 00:14:57,109 --> 00:14:54,600 to to go into the harms of alternative 320 00:15:00,139 --> 00:14:57,119 treatments and I try to see that this is 321 00:15:02,299 --> 00:15:00,149 when you balance it out and the positive 322 00:15:05,179 --> 00:15:02,309 effects and the negative effects it you 323 00:15:07,519 --> 00:15:05,189 can't really support alternative 324 00:15:10,220 --> 00:15:07,529 treatments even though there is surplus 325 00:15:13,369 --> 00:15:10,230 labor effects it's interesting is also 326 00:15:17,059 --> 00:15:13,379 an argument or babe some discussion of 327 00:15:18,559 --> 00:15:17,069 whether it's ethical to use something 328 00:15:22,939 --> 00:15:18,569 that you know doesn't work but will 329 00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:22,949 deliver a placebo effect or as a doctor 330 00:15:27,530 --> 00:15:25,110 you should be upfront with your patient 331 00:15:30,679 --> 00:15:27,540 and say I'm going to try this but it has 332 00:15:33,229 --> 00:15:30,689 no physiological benefit but you might 333 00:15:36,619 --> 00:15:33,239 feel in your mind you're you're pure you 334 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:36,629 feel some relief now it's quite 335 00:15:41,359 --> 00:15:38,970 difficult because I also go into the 336 00:15:44,569 --> 00:15:41,369 last part of my book I see how ordinary 337 00:15:46,970 --> 00:15:44,579 doctors use the placebo effect or use 338 00:15:49,429 --> 00:15:46,980 placebo treatments and they're being 339 00:15:51,710 --> 00:15:49,439 quite a lot of studies looking into that 340 00:15:54,679 --> 00:15:51,720 and it's quite interesting because of 341 00:15:57,259 --> 00:15:54,689 course some kind of of triggering the 342 00:15:59,229 --> 00:15:57,269 placebo effects is good like talking up 343 00:16:01,729 --> 00:15:59,239 the medicine if you can support it 344 00:16:04,369 --> 00:16:01,739 scientifically but telling the patient 345 00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:04,379 that this pill will have a good effect 346 00:16:09,679 --> 00:16:07,529 yes it's a good thing to do because it 347 00:16:12,079 --> 00:16:09,689 will probably boost the effects belittle 348 00:16:15,049 --> 00:16:12,089 the talking down the medicine on just 349 00:16:18,109 --> 00:16:15,059 focusing on the on the side effects for 350 00:16:20,419 --> 00:16:18,119 example although of course the patient 351 00:16:21,889 --> 00:16:20,429 should be informed we shouldn't overdo 352 00:16:24,109 --> 00:16:21,899 that because then you actually can 353 00:16:26,060 --> 00:16:24,119 trigger some side effects that wouldn't 354 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:26,070 have been triggered otherwise 355 00:16:30,260 --> 00:16:28,530 so it's quite difficult to choose the 356 00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:30,270 right word and you have to talk up the 357 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:32,510 medicine and you have to be honest and 358 00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:35,450 towards the patient but you shouldn't 359 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:38,310 focus probably too much on the negative 360 00:16:41,870 --> 00:16:40,170 aspects because i also have a chapter in 361 00:16:44,210 --> 00:16:41,880 the book about the nocebo effect and 362 00:16:46,460 --> 00:16:44,220 talking about how this expectation of 363 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:46,470 far more expectation of side effects can 364 00:16:51,620 --> 00:16:48,930 actually trigger some of this negative 365 00:16:53,210 --> 00:16:51,630 effects it isn't that interesting isn't 366 00:16:56,950 --> 00:16:53,220 that interesting and how long did it 367 00:17:01,670 --> 00:16:59,990 that's quite hard to answer because I 368 00:17:05,689 --> 00:17:01,680 signed a contract with the publishing 369 00:17:07,130 --> 00:17:05,699 company three years ago but i didn't use 370 00:17:08,569 --> 00:17:07,140 all that time right thing but you could 371 00:17:10,939 --> 00:17:08,579 also argue that probably i've been 372 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:10,949 discussing this topic for almost 10 373 00:17:15,740 --> 00:17:13,170 years probably on the internet and i've 374 00:17:19,430 --> 00:17:15,750 been collecting knowledge about it for 375 00:17:21,050 --> 00:17:19,440 many many years so i've been effectively 376 00:17:23,449 --> 00:17:21,060 writing the book probably the last two 377 00:17:25,460 --> 00:17:23,459 years and just going through all the 378 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:25,470 articles and hundreds of studies that 379 00:17:30,500 --> 00:17:28,650 I've collected and then written about 380 00:17:32,060 --> 00:17:30,510 earlier because i also have a skeptical 381 00:17:34,490 --> 00:17:32,070 blog and I've written quite a lot about 382 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:34,500 this topic send my blog that's 383 00:17:37,820 --> 00:17:35,970 interesting and for the benefit of our 384 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:37,830 listeners how where can they find your 385 00:17:44,690 --> 00:17:42,690 skeptical blog well if you google my 386 00:17:47,420 --> 00:17:44,700 name you'll find it the the domain name 387 00:17:52,430 --> 00:17:47,430 is actually my last name Chumlee it calm 388 00:17:53,990 --> 00:17:52,440 and I in Norway most skeptical people 389 00:17:57,410 --> 00:17:54,000 will know where to find that if you 390 00:17:59,270 --> 00:17:57,420 catch on real fine it's okay well well 391 00:18:02,210 --> 00:17:59,280 I'll put a link in the show notes so 392 00:18:04,970 --> 00:18:02,220 people can visit our website there and 393 00:18:09,370 --> 00:18:04,980 easily find that and who's publishing 394 00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:09,380 the book it's something called the human 395 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:12,110 humanist so like in Norway which is a 396 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:16,050 publishing division or company owned I 397 00:18:20,030 --> 00:18:18,290 think your sound at least the 398 00:18:24,950 --> 00:18:20,040 collaborating with the humanist 399 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:24,960 association in Norway and is that easier 400 00:18:31,220 --> 00:18:27,330 book now available online people buy it 401 00:18:32,690 --> 00:18:31,230 online or is it in the books tools yeah 402 00:18:36,260 --> 00:18:32,700 you can find it online you can buy it 403 00:18:38,210 --> 00:18:36,270 directly from humanists for logic know 404 00:18:39,769 --> 00:18:38,220 the publishing company where you can get 405 00:18:41,869 --> 00:18:39,779 both the physical 406 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:41,879 paper copy and you can also get 407 00:18:47,389 --> 00:18:45,450 electronic books in mobi and epub files 408 00:18:49,940 --> 00:18:47,399 but you can also find it on iTunes if 409 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:49,950 you search up my name look up my name or 410 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:53,129 search for the placebo effect and you 411 00:18:58,070 --> 00:18:54,570 can also find that in bookstores and 412 00:19:01,789 --> 00:18:58,080 online bookstores and at the moment is 413 00:19:05,749 --> 00:19:01,799 is the book only in Norwegian yeah it's 414 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:05,759 only a Norwegian okay any plans to have 415 00:19:14,209 --> 00:19:09,570 it translated into English well if we 416 00:19:15,799 --> 00:19:14,219 get a huge stop an email campaign to the 417 00:19:17,389 --> 00:19:15,809 publishing company maybe though they 418 00:19:20,149 --> 00:19:17,399 want to translate it but there are no 419 00:19:22,249 --> 00:19:20,159 concrete plans for that moment another 420 00:19:23,779 --> 00:19:22,259 thing it's popular for authors to do now 421 00:19:26,959 --> 00:19:23,789 and I don't know if this is crossed your 422 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:26,969 mind is a lot of authors will read their 423 00:19:32,919 --> 00:19:30,210 books and sell the the audio file online 424 00:19:35,149 --> 00:19:32,929 it's something you might even consider 425 00:19:37,009 --> 00:19:35,159 yeah that's actually been quite a lot of 426 00:19:40,789 --> 00:19:37,019 requests the people want an audio 427 00:19:42,499 --> 00:19:40,799 version of the book and maybe that maybe 428 00:19:44,989 --> 00:19:42,509 we should do something I thought I don't 429 00:19:46,729 --> 00:19:44,999 know that that might be an option well 430 00:19:48,919 --> 00:19:46,739 speaking personally I've read many books 431 00:19:50,450 --> 00:19:48,929 but I must be candid with you and say 432 00:19:52,549 --> 00:19:50,460 that when I say I've read many books 433 00:19:54,589 --> 00:19:52,559 I've actually listened to many books 434 00:19:56,779 --> 00:19:54,599 because i absorb information far better 435 00:19:59,079 --> 00:19:56,789 through my ears than my eyes I think 436 00:20:01,310 --> 00:19:59,089 it's always enjoyable to hear an author 437 00:20:03,379 --> 00:20:01,320 read their book because they've got that 438 00:20:05,239 --> 00:20:03,389 extra passion and knowledge I guess you 439 00:20:06,499 --> 00:20:05,249 could say well it's been wonderful to 440 00:20:09,109 --> 00:20:06,509 chat with you I wish you every success 441 00:20:12,019 --> 00:20:09,119 with your book the placebo defect sounds 442 00:20:13,820 --> 00:20:12,029 interesting I might even hold my breath 443 00:20:16,159 --> 00:20:13,830 and wait till it comes out in English so 444 00:20:18,259 --> 00:20:16,169 I can enjoy it too but for our Norwegian 445 00:20:20,570 --> 00:20:18,269 listeners and we have many listeners in 446 00:20:24,769 --> 00:20:20,580 Norway I hope they run to the website 447 00:20:27,589 --> 00:20:24,779 and discover your fascinating book but 448 00:20:49,390 --> 00:20:27,599 for now thank you for joining us on the 449 00:20:53,510 --> 00:20:51,890 hey this is Jay novella from the 450 00:20:55,460 --> 00:20:53,520 skeptics guide to the universe podcast 451 00:20:57,290 --> 00:20:55,470 did you know that there are thousands of 452 00:20:59,000 --> 00:20:57,300 skeptical reports interviews and 453 00:21:01,730 --> 00:20:59,010 investigations going back to nineteen 454 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:01,740 eighty one free to download just visit w 455 00:21:07,310 --> 00:21:05,610 WC eptic coa you click the publications 456 00:21:09,020 --> 00:21:07,320 link and enjoy almost every back issue 457 00:21:10,820 --> 00:21:09,030 of the skeptic the journal from 458 00:21:12,380 --> 00:21:10,830 australian skeptics you can also 459 00:21:14,660 --> 00:21:12,390 subscribe online and get the latest 460 00:21:16,670 --> 00:21:14,670 digital or hard copy of this the world's 461 00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:16,680 second oldest skeptical magazine that's 462 00:21:32,570 --> 00:21:20,370 ww skeptics com a you or just google 463 00:21:34,910 --> 00:21:32,580 australian skeptics welcome to a week in 464 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:34,920 science from our iOS bringing you the 465 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:37,530 science news you need to know this week 466 00:21:42,770 --> 00:21:39,930 in science we saw challenging human 467 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:42,780 evolution one flu jab to rule them all 468 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:53,040 has the analysis of a 1.8 million year 469 00:21:58,140 --> 00:21:55,570 old skull turned our understanding of 470 00:22:00,210 --> 00:21:58,150 human evolution on its head the skull of 471 00:22:02,970 --> 00:22:00,220 a human ancestor was found with four 472 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:02,980 others in Georgia and combines physical 473 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:04,690 features that are generally used to 474 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:07,530 distinguish between different species 475 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:09,610 researchers suggests that fossils 476 00:22:14,370 --> 00:22:11,410 previously classified as separate 477 00:22:15,540 --> 00:22:14,380 species may in fact all be the same but 478 00:22:18,270 --> 00:22:15,550 displaying different physical 479 00:22:20,490 --> 00:22:18,280 appearances just like modern humans this 480 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:20,500 has been viewed with skepticism by many 481 00:22:27,540 --> 00:22:22,930 other archaeologists who say that it is 482 00:22:30,540 --> 00:22:27,550 a dramatic over interpretation we may be 483 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:30,550 one step closer to one jab that protects 484 00:22:35,940 --> 00:22:33,610 us against all strains of the flu when 485 00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:35,950 you get a flu vaccine your body produces 486 00:22:41,010 --> 00:22:38,110 antibodies that are specific to that 487 00:22:43,590 --> 00:22:41,020 particular virus strain meaning you need 488 00:22:46,110 --> 00:22:43,600 a new jab every year as the virus 489 00:22:48,540 --> 00:22:46,120 mutates to tackle this researchers 490 00:22:51,090 --> 00:22:48,550 injected mice with a drug that stops 491 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:51,100 your body from producing virus specific 492 00:22:55,830 --> 00:22:53,530 antibodies when used together with the 493 00:22:58,050 --> 00:22:55,840 vaccine the mice produce more general 494 00:23:00,540 --> 00:22:58,060 antibodies that protected them against 495 00:23:02,820 --> 00:23:00,550 several flu viruses at once you're 496 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:02,830 listening to a week in science from our 497 00:23:10,410 --> 00:23:05,890 IRS and now for size headlines in 30 498 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:10,420 seconds researchers have developed small 499 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:12,610 medical implants containing cells which 500 00:23:17,490 --> 00:23:15,010 are activated by light to increase 501 00:23:19,890 --> 00:23:17,500 insulin production a child's level of 502 00:23:22,590 --> 00:23:19,900 math skills are evident at six months of 503 00:23:24,210 --> 00:23:22,600 age gum trees absorb gold particles 504 00:23:26,460 --> 00:23:24,220 through their roots which are then 505 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:26,470 deposited in their leaves meaning gold 506 00:23:31,770 --> 00:23:29,290 literally does grow on trees and good 507 00:23:34,170 --> 00:23:31,780 news for baldies researchers have grown 508 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:34,180 human hair follicles for the first time 509 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:37,210 the bad news is the skin used came from 510 00:23:43,020 --> 00:23:41,050 circumsized for skins did you know that 511 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:43,030 a week in science is now available on 512 00:23:48,330 --> 00:23:46,330 itunes youtube vimeo and various sites 513 00:23:51,510 --> 00:23:48,340 around the world including sciencealert 514 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:51,520 cosmos magazine and sustainability TV 515 00:23:56,310 --> 00:23:53,890 you can also hear a week in science on 516 00:23:58,380 --> 00:23:56,320 the skeptic zone podcast as well as 517 00:24:00,840 --> 00:23:58,390 around Australia on the commune 518 00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:00,850 Radio Network tell your friends there's 519 00:24:06,090 --> 00:24:03,130 no reason not to get their science news 520 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:06,100 fix each week that was a week in science 521 00:24:17,610 --> 00:24:21,850 you 522 00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:24,430 this is ben Radford I'm deputy editor of 523 00:24:28,060 --> 00:24:26,000 skeptical inquirer science magazine 524 00:24:29,980 --> 00:24:28,070 author of six books including tracking 525 00:24:37,660 --> 00:24:29,990 chupacabra and you can find out more 526 00:24:40,630 --> 00:24:37,670 about me at Benjamin Radford com join us 527 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:40,640 now for drinking skeptically in the 528 00:24:52,669 --> 00:24:50,690 noted a little numbing campania so 529 00:24:54,169 --> 00:24:52,679 little knowing tins cousin I think I'm 530 00:24:55,850 --> 00:24:54,179 big not until after the meal on have 531 00:24:57,620 --> 00:24:55,860 your big nomming t'en well I'd like to 532 00:24:59,810 --> 00:24:57,630 welcome you big normington and all the 533 00:25:01,460 --> 00:24:59,820 other knowing tins in the room to the to 534 00:25:05,780 --> 00:25:01,470 the think tank in the storage room 535 00:25:08,510 --> 00:25:05,790 cheers everybody and echoey cheers 536 00:25:10,190 --> 00:25:08,520 richard yes we have discovered a little 537 00:25:11,930 --> 00:25:10,200 storage room in our favorite club down 538 00:25:14,510 --> 00:25:11,940 the end of the street because the room 539 00:25:17,180 --> 00:25:14,520 we wanted to use has lovely elevator 540 00:25:19,430 --> 00:25:17,190 music dr. H loud elevator music Richard 541 00:25:20,870 --> 00:25:19,440 it's good to see you because um we were 542 00:25:22,820 --> 00:25:20,880 worried that Marcos was gonna break into 543 00:25:26,299 --> 00:25:22,830 capoeira or something during the podcast 544 00:25:30,830 --> 00:25:26,309 so we have some special guests tonight 545 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:30,840 we have Marcos hello Marcus oh hi hi how 546 00:25:37,370 --> 00:25:35,090 are you he says with a beer in his hand 547 00:25:39,970 --> 00:25:37,380 moving his arms in a way that says I 548 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:39,980 have no idea what I'm supposed to do now 549 00:25:46,669 --> 00:25:42,530 yeah we just make it up as you go along 550 00:25:48,590 --> 00:25:46,679 okay and none of the voice you know so 551 00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:48,600 well it runs to give hello around hello 552 00:25:53,780 --> 00:25:50,400 written with your paper you got a new 553 00:25:59,060 --> 00:25:53,790 watch yes it's a pebble a pebble this 554 00:26:01,340 --> 00:25:59,070 watch has apps he talks to my phone my 555 00:26:03,770 --> 00:26:01,350 phone talks to it actually I talk to 556 00:26:06,140 --> 00:26:03,780 both of them you know I kind of learn by 557 00:26:09,260 --> 00:26:06,150 my friends you know they say you're 558 00:26:13,010 --> 00:26:09,270 gonna say that I'm a geek no medication 559 00:26:14,810 --> 00:26:13,020 for that it's okay and somebody who 560 00:26:16,850 --> 00:26:14,820 knows about medication Joanne better 561 00:26:19,010 --> 00:26:16,860 move hi Richard your medicating yourself 562 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:19,020 at the moment if you consider diet coke 563 00:26:25,549 --> 00:26:23,490 medication and also joining us tonight 564 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:25,559 is somebody who comes along to skeptics 565 00:26:29,510 --> 00:26:27,090 in the pub here in Sydney it's Margo 566 00:26:31,430 --> 00:26:29,520 dentate hello maverick hi you know great 567 00:26:33,230 --> 00:26:31,440 to have you along here I hope you're not 568 00:26:37,940 --> 00:26:33,240 too shocked by the fact we are actually 569 00:26:39,919 --> 00:26:37,950 in a storage yeah this is yes didn't 570 00:26:42,049 --> 00:26:39,929 expect this I have pretending we're in a 571 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:42,059 bomb shelter or something it's like that 572 00:26:46,010 --> 00:26:43,410 but you must remember that Margaret 573 00:26:48,020 --> 00:26:46,020 actually inadvertently proposed that the 574 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:48,030 next one will be at her place so well it 575 00:26:50,460 --> 00:26:49,410 would be a little bit more comfortable I 576 00:26:53,220 --> 00:26:50,470 think 577 00:26:54,779 --> 00:26:53,230 yeah oh it's not too bad it's not too 578 00:26:56,130 --> 00:26:54,789 bad the restaurant was particularly 579 00:27:00,659 --> 00:26:56,140 noisy tonight that was Richards 580 00:27:03,570 --> 00:27:00,669 cognitive dissonance can you using those 581 00:27:04,860 --> 00:27:03,580 big words with me Joe and Benham ooh and 582 00:27:07,230 --> 00:27:04,870 it's really nice to have another think 583 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:07,240 tank don't you think dr. AG the spent 584 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:10,330 ages hasn't it dr. Richards it's been a 585 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:11,530 long time I guess we've all been pretty 586 00:27:14,279 --> 00:27:12,730 busy I don't know about you guys but 587 00:27:16,289 --> 00:27:14,289 I've been frantic you've been really 588 00:27:18,419 --> 00:27:16,299 busy had my head up my bum or something 589 00:27:21,210 --> 00:27:18,429 I don't know is this being mental and 590 00:27:23,279 --> 00:27:21,220 and you were part of the evacuation at 591 00:27:24,930 --> 00:27:23,289 UTS the other day oh not really bad I 592 00:27:27,570 --> 00:27:24,940 didn't meet a friend of mine on the 593 00:27:29,070 --> 00:27:27,580 street actually who for a long time has 594 00:27:31,140 --> 00:27:29,080 been working in building 10 which is 595 00:27:33,090 --> 00:27:31,150 about two buildings over from me and 596 00:27:34,470 --> 00:27:33,100 we've never bothered to catch up for 597 00:27:36,029 --> 00:27:34,480 coffee or anything I've been there for 598 00:27:39,180 --> 00:27:36,039 over a year and we were in the street 599 00:27:41,370 --> 00:27:39,190 getting evacuated and we met up sorry hi 600 00:27:45,419 --> 00:27:41,380 John if you're listening where you going 601 00:27:46,799 --> 00:27:45,429 how about that well over the last couple 602 00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:46,809 of weeks out there have been some very 603 00:27:51,810 --> 00:27:48,370 prominent issues come to our attention 604 00:27:53,190 --> 00:27:51,820 in the skeptical sort of realm of things 605 00:27:54,930 --> 00:27:53,200 especially to do with so-called 606 00:27:58,440 --> 00:27:54,940 alternative medicine so why don't we 607 00:28:03,659 --> 00:27:58,450 kick off with you dr. AG a couple of 608 00:28:06,649 --> 00:28:03,669 days ago last weekend there was one of 609 00:28:09,570 --> 00:28:06,659 these false balance so-called debates on 610 00:28:11,669 --> 00:28:09,580 television which we're somewhat i'm 611 00:28:13,649 --> 00:28:11,679 happy about yeah look I was livid and 612 00:28:16,860 --> 00:28:13,659 there aren't even enough swear words in 613 00:28:19,860 --> 00:28:16,870 the dictionary on a thur Thoris to cover 614 00:28:21,090 --> 00:28:19,870 hal david i was i had the preparation 615 00:28:23,220 --> 00:28:21,100 he'll be worried about me and i had a 616 00:28:24,870 --> 00:28:23,230 friend just calling my mobile constantly 617 00:28:26,669 --> 00:28:24,880 and I correct fuse to answer the phone 618 00:28:28,830 --> 00:28:26,679 this is of course appearance of a 619 00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:28,840 merrill dory I i I've actually seen it 620 00:28:34,529 --> 00:28:32,710 quite so shouting for well you know it 621 00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:34,539 was that bad that Joe used to swear word 622 00:28:41,580 --> 00:28:38,710 it's sure nice she used to swear twice 623 00:28:42,899 --> 00:28:41,590 good heavens so in summary of what 624 00:28:45,630 --> 00:28:42,909 happened here people who may not know 625 00:28:47,250 --> 00:28:45,640 yeah and there was a morning breakfast 626 00:28:48,690 --> 00:28:47,260 television program on a Saturday morning 627 00:28:50,460 --> 00:28:48,700 that decided they would have a great 628 00:28:53,399 --> 00:28:50,470 rack summation debate which is something 629 00:28:55,500 --> 00:28:53,409 we've been working on quashing from the 630 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:55,510 media for a number of years and been 631 00:29:00,899 --> 00:28:57,690 working very hard to do that actually 632 00:29:03,029 --> 00:29:00,909 and so that was featured merrill dory 633 00:29:08,669 --> 00:29:03,039 and unfortunately our professor of 634 00:29:11,399 --> 00:29:08,679 pediatrics and infectious disease so it 635 00:29:13,529 --> 00:29:11,409 was at the timing of it was also pretty 636 00:29:15,180 --> 00:29:13,539 poor and I sort of took it a bit 637 00:29:17,609 --> 00:29:15,190 personally even though I'm sure it 638 00:29:19,519 --> 00:29:17,619 wasn't and it absolutely wasn't but 639 00:29:22,019 --> 00:29:19,529 because the wednesday before it happened 640 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:22,029 an article of mine had been published in 641 00:29:26,609 --> 00:29:24,210 The Guardian with the headline 642 00:29:29,489 --> 00:29:26,619 anti-vaxxers should not have a say in 643 00:29:32,940 --> 00:29:29,499 the mainstream media and then to have on 644 00:29:35,099 --> 00:29:32,950 Saturday this debate which was the same 645 00:29:37,979 --> 00:29:35,109 old tired of stuff that the mainstream 646 00:29:40,919 --> 00:29:37,989 media pulls out you know they have the 647 00:29:42,119 --> 00:29:40,929 professor of pediatrics and who says 648 00:29:45,389 --> 00:29:42,129 something and then they have Merrill 649 00:29:49,139 --> 00:29:45,399 also touted as an expert so yes you know 650 00:29:51,899 --> 00:29:49,149 the super said experts debate yeah young 651 00:29:55,619 --> 00:29:51,909 as if there was you know equal equal 652 00:29:58,259 --> 00:29:55,629 validity to their to their expertise but 653 00:30:00,269 --> 00:29:58,269 unfortunately that the implications of 654 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:00,279 that were not just just like two or 655 00:30:06,330 --> 00:30:04,330 three minutes on television and the back 656 00:30:08,899 --> 00:30:06,340 channels in places like social media and 657 00:30:11,729 --> 00:30:08,909 other places it's revitalized the avian 658 00:30:13,169 --> 00:30:11,739 in it in a way and they've been 659 00:30:15,269 --> 00:30:13,179 extremely quiet for quite some time 660 00:30:17,399 --> 00:30:15,279 we're currently waiting on the outcome 661 00:30:20,629 --> 00:30:17,409 of several investigations from several 662 00:30:23,279 --> 00:30:20,639 government acronyms one of which is the 663 00:30:24,989 --> 00:30:23,289 directive to change their name mm-hmm 664 00:30:27,119 --> 00:30:24,999 which is coming up in the next six weeks 665 00:30:28,889 --> 00:30:27,129 I think about time that's been going on 666 00:30:30,539 --> 00:30:28,899 for a deadline six months for a decision 667 00:30:33,419 --> 00:30:30,549 and the six months will be up in a 668 00:30:36,060 --> 00:30:33,429 little while so they've gone to ground 669 00:30:39,389 --> 00:30:36,070 essentially this has not only revitalize 670 00:30:41,249 --> 00:30:39,399 her ego a wise and also to she now 671 00:30:42,570 --> 00:30:41,259 thinks she's she's back in the game and 672 00:30:45,690 --> 00:30:42,580 she mentioned something about my 673 00:30:47,999 --> 00:30:45,700 television career on Facebook but it's 674 00:30:50,759 --> 00:30:48,009 also it's revitalized her followers but 675 00:30:52,349 --> 00:30:50,769 I think the reason I and others were so 676 00:30:55,229 --> 00:30:52,359 angry about it is not just because of 677 00:30:57,259 --> 00:30:55,239 the false balancing but because behind 678 00:30:59,759 --> 00:30:57,269 the scenes we saw a lot of parents who 679 00:31:03,839 --> 00:30:59,769 have been at the receiving end of the 680 00:31:05,639 --> 00:31:03,849 nasty vicious horribleness that comes 681 00:31:08,339 --> 00:31:05,649 from avian and their supporters yeah and 682 00:31:09,930 --> 00:31:08,349 they were saying things like all now 683 00:31:12,340 --> 00:31:09,940 she's back on television it's like a 684 00:31:14,850 --> 00:31:12,350 twist of the knife into my heart again 685 00:31:17,650 --> 00:31:14,860 reminds me of what I had to go through 686 00:31:19,090 --> 00:31:17,660 when she was sending her home followers 687 00:31:21,490 --> 00:31:19,100 were sending letters and writing blogs 688 00:31:23,409 --> 00:31:21,500 about us and yeah so is those people 689 00:31:25,930 --> 00:31:23,419 that that actually suffer from his kind 690 00:31:29,650 --> 00:31:25,940 of stuff and this is what made me so 691 00:31:33,070 --> 00:31:29,660 angry was that this that somebody agreed 692 00:31:36,279 --> 00:31:33,080 to do this from the provac side when it 693 00:31:37,870 --> 00:31:36,289 wasn't necessary and apparently they 694 00:31:40,510 --> 00:31:37,880 didn't understand the implications of 695 00:31:43,150 --> 00:31:40,520 doing it and what they don't realize is 696 00:31:44,830 --> 00:31:43,160 that this creates a ripple effect when 697 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:44,840 this sort of thing happens which then we 698 00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:46,730 have to work with and work on for months 699 00:31:50,169 --> 00:31:48,559 and months and months to try and weight 700 00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:50,179 and my it sort of this understanding 701 00:31:58,149 --> 00:31:54,880 that if you have an expert to counter a 702 00:32:02,140 --> 00:31:58,159 crank then the public are then going to 703 00:32:04,350 --> 00:32:02,150 be able to see that what's being said by 704 00:32:07,330 --> 00:32:04,360 someone like Meryl Dory is nonsense 705 00:32:08,980 --> 00:32:07,340 whereas in fact it doesn't work that way 706 00:32:10,149 --> 00:32:08,990 and it's why for example one of the 707 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:10,159 examples I've heard in the last few days 708 00:32:14,409 --> 00:32:12,530 is Richard Dawkins who refuses to debate 709 00:32:16,570 --> 00:32:14,419 creations right so many years and in 710 00:32:18,220 --> 00:32:16,580 fact the quote was you know what did say 711 00:32:21,029 --> 00:32:18,230 them is that that would be great on your 712 00:32:24,460 --> 00:32:21,039 CV but not so good online actually I 713 00:32:26,020 --> 00:32:24,470 think it's kind of you know it's very 714 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:26,030 eat and I can kind of understand though 715 00:32:30,820 --> 00:32:29,210 how you know one would think well no we 716 00:32:32,830 --> 00:32:30,830 have to be there we have to counter what 717 00:32:34,750 --> 00:32:32,840 these people are saying but it does it 718 00:32:37,149 --> 00:32:34,760 sets up that false but it also makes 719 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:37,159 them more difficult for us because in 720 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:40,730 Australia if if television stations or 721 00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:42,650 media do things like that if they if 722 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:45,289 they perpetuate or or provide a platform 723 00:32:49,930 --> 00:32:47,650 for false information we can go to 724 00:32:51,730 --> 00:32:49,940 complaints people we can make complaints 725 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:51,740 and they can actually get sanctioned for 726 00:32:58,149 --> 00:32:55,610 that so but if there is an expert also 727 00:33:00,850 --> 00:32:58,159 there the then the complaints department 728 00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:00,860 see that as well no I'm sorry because we 729 00:33:04,510 --> 00:33:02,809 provide balance we provided an expert 730 00:33:06,669 --> 00:33:04,520 there to refute those claims so you have 731 00:33:09,909 --> 00:33:06,679 no grounds to complain so in fact it's 732 00:33:11,950 --> 00:33:09,919 worse having somebody else on there as 733 00:33:14,710 --> 00:33:11,960 an is actually a scientist or a doctor 734 00:33:16,539 --> 00:33:14,720 than just having her on and not only 735 00:33:18,279 --> 00:33:16,549 that not only from the perspective of 736 00:33:21,669 --> 00:33:18,289 complaining and successfully getting 737 00:33:23,409 --> 00:33:21,679 these people sanctioned we know from 738 00:33:24,909 --> 00:33:23,419 evidence now there is at the paper that 739 00:33:26,109 --> 00:33:24,919 and this is the thing that made me just 740 00:33:29,079 --> 00:33:26,119 so stabby on Saturday 741 00:33:31,509 --> 00:33:29,089 it was because this freaking paper that 742 00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:31,519 was published in april this year which i 743 00:33:37,719 --> 00:33:34,569 wrote up in the guardian on wednesday 744 00:33:41,169 --> 00:33:37,729 and was available to everybody to read 745 00:33:42,789 --> 00:33:41,179 getting shouting but this is you know 746 00:33:44,829 --> 00:33:42,799 it's not like this information is locked 747 00:33:46,299 --> 00:33:44,839 behind paywalls or you know people can't 748 00:33:49,029 --> 00:33:46,309 see it and it was there and it's out 749 00:33:51,129 --> 00:33:49,039 there and so it's not just we know from 750 00:33:52,869 --> 00:33:51,139 that sort of research that these kind of 751 00:33:54,969 --> 00:33:52,879 debates are actually worse and having an 752 00:33:58,299 --> 00:33:54,979 anti backs are there because as general 753 00:34:00,249 --> 00:33:58,309 leader to it it instills in people's 754 00:34:01,749 --> 00:34:00,259 minds that there is true the conflict 755 00:34:03,369 --> 00:34:01,759 amongst experts that there is true 756 00:34:05,469 --> 00:34:03,379 debate especially when one of those 757 00:34:07,569 --> 00:34:05,479 complete cranks is labeled as an expert 758 00:34:09,489 --> 00:34:07,579 yeah and I meaning if you look at the 759 00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:09,499 scientific evidence there's no debate 760 00:34:14,619 --> 00:34:12,169 among scientists about the safety it was 761 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:14,629 easy television and and the anti-vaxxers 762 00:34:18,849 --> 00:34:16,490 have the benefit of not needing to 763 00:34:19,869 --> 00:34:18,859 actually have darts our information you 764 00:34:21,669 --> 00:34:19,879 know they're just because whatever you 765 00:34:23,769 --> 00:34:21,679 want yeah so you know there's that 766 00:34:25,149 --> 00:34:23,779 saying about don't ever argue with an 767 00:34:26,230 --> 00:34:25,159 idiot because they'll drag you down to 768 00:34:28,180 --> 00:34:26,240 their level and beat you with experience 769 00:34:32,619 --> 00:34:28,190 but that's exactly what they do they 770 00:34:35,559 --> 00:34:32,629 mean they have they have an arsenal that 771 00:34:37,749 --> 00:34:35,569 that our side can't use of just being 772 00:34:40,329 --> 00:34:37,759 able yeah yeah but also there's another 773 00:34:42,369 --> 00:34:40,339 saying about arguing it came from 774 00:34:44,349 --> 00:34:42,379 arguing with creationist and the saying 775 00:34:45,669 --> 00:34:44,359 is it's like playing chess with a pigeon 776 00:34:47,729 --> 00:34:45,679 they [\h__\h] all over the board not the 777 00:34:50,259 --> 00:34:47,739 pieces i can fly home to say they want 778 00:34:54,190 --> 00:34:50,269 which are particular like no this is a 779 00:34:55,839 --> 00:34:54,200 very unusual isn't it and you know i 780 00:34:57,460 --> 00:34:55,849 think that applies extremely walter the 781 00:35:00,249 --> 00:34:57,470 anti-vaxxers wouldn't you say Joe oh 782 00:35:02,710 --> 00:35:00,259 absolutely absolutely this Admiral 783 00:35:04,569 --> 00:35:02,720 Torrey actually sort of appealed to to 784 00:35:06,670 --> 00:35:04,579 you know the audience something she has 785 00:35:08,890 --> 00:35:06,680 some sort charisma or whatever in the 786 00:35:12,460 --> 00:35:08,900 media so and that's a there must be hard 787 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:12,470 to you know for somebody to she's got to 788 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:15,970 impart go against you so kindly aren't 789 00:35:19,950 --> 00:35:18,130 ya 790 00:35:21,570 --> 00:35:19,960 we want to explore both sides and the 791 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:21,580 are doing and also that the point is 792 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:24,130 she's a mum and she's got a vaccine 793 00:35:29,070 --> 00:35:27,490 injured child other allegedly so of 794 00:35:31,110 --> 00:35:29,080 course she's got the emotive side to 795 00:35:33,450 --> 00:35:31,120 appeal to and we also know from research 796 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:33,460 that white coats and graphs and science 797 00:35:38,070 --> 00:35:35,530 and facts do not appeal to people's 798 00:35:43,830 --> 00:35:38,080 emotional side so we know from a lot of 799 00:35:45,810 --> 00:35:43,840 social research that just can just using 800 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:45,820 the facts on people or trying to debate 801 00:35:50,190 --> 00:35:48,130 based with science doesn't work each 802 00:35:52,110 --> 00:35:50,200 other story you need to tell a story 803 00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:52,120 needs to be compelling human story yeah 804 00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:54,640 and that's what Meryl has she has that 805 00:35:59,250 --> 00:35:57,610 my child was sticky 1994 by the robot 806 00:36:01,200 --> 00:35:59,260 and she said mom people can relate to 807 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:01,210 and she's just like another person on 808 00:36:08,790 --> 00:36:03,490 the street yeah yeah exactly like 809 00:36:10,740 --> 00:36:08,800 another person she was another person on 810 00:36:12,180 --> 00:36:10,750 sweetie she couldn't be less qualified 811 00:36:15,570 --> 00:36:12,190 than the average person in the street 812 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:15,580 she finished high school is like the 813 00:36:19,050 --> 00:36:17,770 brain yeah she's a brain you and I were 814 00:36:24,380 --> 00:36:19,060 both there that they weren't we yeah 815 00:36:26,820 --> 00:36:24,390 channel 71 that three years yeah for you 816 00:36:28,890 --> 00:36:26,830 okay that's where we met faster cheaper 817 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:28,900 yeah well it's long yeah yeah there we 818 00:36:32,730 --> 00:36:30,610 will you me right bag and some other 819 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:32,740 people over here and I guess that's the 820 00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:35,170 other point too is that you mentioned 821 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:36,310 that we've been doing this for a long 822 00:36:41,340 --> 00:36:39,010 time and it only takes one of these 823 00:36:44,220 --> 00:36:41,350 things to really put us back in quite a 824 00:36:46,670 --> 00:36:44,230 long way so we really need to be 825 00:36:50,070 --> 00:36:46,680 diligent about this and we hope that 826 00:36:52,890 --> 00:36:50,080 people don't do this stuff again because 827 00:36:55,620 --> 00:36:52,900 I mean as I said to somebody on the 828 00:36:57,690 --> 00:36:55,630 weekend you know for me I get abused but 829 00:36:59,970 --> 00:36:57,700 for doing this stuff but I can walk away 830 00:37:01,830 --> 00:36:59,980 from this I can stop lobbying the media 831 00:37:03,690 --> 00:37:01,840 I can stop writing articles i can stop 832 00:37:05,430 --> 00:37:03,700 writing blogs and then the trolls will 833 00:37:07,020 --> 00:37:05,440 fall away eventually and it will just go 834 00:37:08,790 --> 00:37:07,030 back to normal but there are some people 835 00:37:11,010 --> 00:37:08,800 that can't do that and those are the 836 00:37:12,990 --> 00:37:11,020 people whose kids were injured or died 837 00:37:15,150 --> 00:37:13,000 from vaccine-preventable diseases they 838 00:37:16,740 --> 00:37:15,160 cannot walk away from this and so that's 839 00:37:19,530 --> 00:37:16,750 why we're here to fight for them and so 840 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:19,540 when we have someone on our side give us 841 00:37:23,069 --> 00:37:21,130 a slap across of the side of the head 842 00:37:26,279 --> 00:37:23,079 it's very disheartening it is 843 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:26,289 yeah well it's interesting you um you 844 00:37:31,249 --> 00:37:29,170 mentioned the word back there because 845 00:37:34,410 --> 00:37:31,259 that that's just to a very strange segue 846 00:37:37,319 --> 00:37:34,420 its a mix egg laid under next topic 847 00:37:40,890 --> 00:37:37,329 which is the recent story in controversy 848 00:37:43,709 --> 00:37:40,900 about chiropractic job enema yes I'm you 849 00:37:46,319 --> 00:37:43,719 might have heard in the papers over the 850 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:46,329 last few weeks a pediatrician by the 851 00:37:52,499 --> 00:37:50,170 name of dr. Chris Pappas reported to 852 00:37:55,049 --> 00:37:52,509 opera which is the Australian health 853 00:37:57,420 --> 00:37:55,059 practitioner regulation authority would 854 00:38:00,059 --> 00:37:57,430 have been in 2012 I think he put the 855 00:38:03,930 --> 00:38:00,069 report in he had treated a four month 856 00:38:05,549 --> 00:38:03,940 old baby who presented an emergency 857 00:38:11,849 --> 00:38:05,559 department of a hospital in Melbourne 858 00:38:14,940 --> 00:38:11,859 with a fractured neck and the baby had 859 00:38:17,549 --> 00:38:14,950 received chiropractic treatment two days 860 00:38:20,130 --> 00:38:17,559 before this presentation Crocs Papa 861 00:38:21,809 --> 00:38:20,140 slobs this complaint and the 862 00:38:25,859 --> 00:38:21,819 chiropractic board conducted an 863 00:38:27,390 --> 00:38:25,869 investigation into this and it recently 864 00:38:30,150 --> 00:38:27,400 came out of the media that this had 865 00:38:33,630 --> 00:38:30,160 happened now what what's been terribly 866 00:38:35,849 --> 00:38:33,640 distressing about this event is that it 867 00:38:38,309 --> 00:38:35,859 began just as this report about this 868 00:38:41,459 --> 00:38:38,319 serves this adverse event this baby 869 00:38:43,349 --> 00:38:41,469 suffering this injury it's become a way 870 00:38:47,039 --> 00:38:43,359 for the chiropractor's Association of 871 00:38:49,829 --> 00:38:47,049 Australia to basically go into damage 872 00:38:53,729 --> 00:38:49,839 control because they see it as an attack 873 00:38:55,559 --> 00:38:53,739 on chiropractic to merely even question 874 00:38:57,809 --> 00:38:55,569 that they could possibly be an adverse 875 00:39:00,630 --> 00:38:57,819 event associated with chiropractic care 876 00:39:02,870 --> 00:39:00,640 five years doing yes five years five 877 00:39:06,749 --> 00:39:02,880 years at University they spend Richard 878 00:39:09,150 --> 00:39:06,759 so are modifies what so did some sort of 879 00:39:13,650 --> 00:39:09,160 the janitors nothing so what happened 880 00:39:16,109 --> 00:39:13,660 was the the the report came out in the 881 00:39:17,939 --> 00:39:16,119 media a couple of weeks ago Amy corduroy 882 00:39:20,939 --> 00:39:17,949 and Julie made you from the ceremony 883 00:39:22,739 --> 00:39:20,949 held me age wrote this up this is 884 00:39:25,769 --> 00:39:22,749 actually at about the same time they 885 00:39:28,049 --> 00:39:25,779 also included in the report some other 886 00:39:31,019 --> 00:39:28,059 rather stunning revelations about a 887 00:39:35,009 --> 00:39:31,029 number of chiropractors who have been 888 00:39:36,319 --> 00:39:35,019 sneaking into hospitals to treat newborn 889 00:39:39,269 --> 00:39:36,329 babies 890 00:39:41,939 --> 00:39:39,279 um well we can we can go back to that 891 00:39:45,029 --> 00:39:41,949 one in a minute but when it came out the 892 00:39:46,469 --> 00:39:45,039 this the CIA which is just in case 893 00:39:48,329 --> 00:39:46,479 you're not aware there are there are two 894 00:39:50,130 --> 00:39:48,339 chiropractor organizations there's coca 895 00:39:52,259 --> 00:39:50,140 which is the chiropractic and 896 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:52,269 osteopathic college and there's the CIA 897 00:39:58,979 --> 00:39:56,249 now the CIA are the sort of aunty backs 898 00:40:03,140 --> 00:39:58,989 more kind of fundamentalist chiropractic 899 00:40:05,579 --> 00:40:03,150 right solarization yeah I'm yeah and 900 00:40:08,279 --> 00:40:05,589 they immediately put out a press release 901 00:40:10,949 --> 00:40:08,289 and the press release claimed that there 902 00:40:12,359 --> 00:40:10,959 never was a fracture and that the 903 00:40:15,779 --> 00:40:12,369 information that had been put out was 904 00:40:19,279 --> 00:40:15,789 wrong and and that the chiropractor 905 00:40:23,309 --> 00:40:19,289 involved had been found not to have 906 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:23,319 engaged in any improper conduct yeah and 907 00:40:27,509 --> 00:40:25,690 this was all very strange because this 908 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:27,519 pediatrician had you know clearly 909 00:40:31,289 --> 00:40:29,170 treated this baby for this there you 910 00:40:35,609 --> 00:40:31,299 know it all seemed to kind of be quite 911 00:40:37,890 --> 00:40:35,619 as it was described anyway it literally 912 00:40:39,180 --> 00:40:37,900 became a back and forth between the 913 00:40:41,309 --> 00:40:39,190 different groups of health professionals 914 00:40:43,559 --> 00:40:41,319 the CIA claiming that nothing had been 915 00:40:45,569 --> 00:40:43,569 found with the doctors involved 916 00:40:47,729 --> 00:40:45,579 absolutely sort of sticking by the story 917 00:40:51,449 --> 00:40:47,739 and saying yes something had been found 918 00:40:53,219 --> 00:40:51,459 and then now if i remember correctly 919 00:40:56,339 --> 00:40:53,229 that the next thing of the chain of 920 00:40:59,370 --> 00:40:56,349 events was that somehow the actual 921 00:41:02,729 --> 00:40:59,380 report was tabled in parliament you know 922 00:41:04,829 --> 00:41:02,739 to the queensland parliament and it was 923 00:41:06,479 --> 00:41:04,839 only the x-ray report which was tabled 924 00:41:08,579 --> 00:41:06,489 and this claimed sorry it was one of the 925 00:41:10,949 --> 00:41:08,589 CT scans and this claim to show that in 926 00:41:15,150 --> 00:41:10,959 fact there was no fracture in this 927 00:41:17,279 --> 00:41:15,160 child's spine and someone actually went 928 00:41:19,529 --> 00:41:17,289 and had a look at the queensland 929 00:41:23,249 --> 00:41:19,539 government the Parliament website and 930 00:41:26,579 --> 00:41:23,259 found the entire report had been tabled 931 00:41:28,609 --> 00:41:26,589 not just a single CT whoops so this was 932 00:41:33,089 --> 00:41:28,619 now so this was now in the public domain 933 00:41:34,829 --> 00:41:33,099 able to be scrutinized and dr. John 934 00:41:38,339 --> 00:41:34,839 Cunningham who's North paddock surgeon 935 00:41:40,259 --> 00:41:38,349 had a look at this report and a number 936 00:41:43,109 --> 00:41:40,269 of other people kind of all people who 937 00:41:44,609 --> 00:41:43,119 are really experts in orthopedics and in 938 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:44,619 pediatrics and so on how to look at this 939 00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:47,890 and actually what happened was and look 940 00:41:51,180 --> 00:41:48,910 I know 941 00:41:52,620 --> 00:41:51,190 orthopaedic is not my area and I'm not a 942 00:41:55,860 --> 00:41:52,630 medical doctor so I'm just sort of 943 00:41:57,510 --> 00:41:55,870 reporting it as I understand it but what 944 00:42:02,450 --> 00:41:57,520 happened was it turned out that this 945 00:42:07,020 --> 00:42:02,460 baby had a congenital condition called 946 00:42:09,810 --> 00:42:07,030 spondylolysis what it seems happened is 947 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:09,820 that the fracture occurred at a weekend 948 00:42:15,420 --> 00:42:12,850 point in the in the vertebra right now 949 00:42:17,580 --> 00:42:15,430 on the initial CT scan I think they were 950 00:42:20,220 --> 00:42:17,590 that there was evidence of a fracture 951 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:20,230 but subsequent CT scans didn't actually 952 00:42:26,430 --> 00:42:24,370 demonstrate this until a final CT scan 953 00:42:28,890 --> 00:42:26,440 which was done about think about three 954 00:42:33,180 --> 00:42:28,900 or four months later which showed 955 00:42:37,140 --> 00:42:33,190 evidence of a healing fracture now the 956 00:42:39,540 --> 00:42:37,150 CIA did mention this they only mentioned 957 00:42:41,970 --> 00:42:39,550 the previous to that the child had about 958 00:42:45,210 --> 00:42:41,980 four CT scans and the CIA only mentioned 959 00:42:47,580 --> 00:42:45,220 the two which didn't show any of this 960 00:42:49,470 --> 00:42:47,590 really that's correct they mentioned 961 00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:49,480 that the child went through for cts in a 962 00:42:54,660 --> 00:42:52,240 very short time because of this no no no 963 00:42:56,580 --> 00:42:54,670 so can I just add that this fracture is 964 00:42:59,430 --> 00:42:56,590 no one amongst the medical profession as 965 00:43:01,320 --> 00:42:59,440 a hangman's fracture which is supposed 966 00:43:03,450 --> 00:43:01,330 to give you the same effect as if you 967 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:03,460 hung someone so essentially the 968 00:43:06,660 --> 00:43:04,930 allegations are that this child had a 969 00:43:09,690 --> 00:43:06,670 neck that was broken in a way that you 970 00:43:13,260 --> 00:43:09,700 would get if you hang someone hmm now 971 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:13,270 that you can actually read the reporters 972 00:43:17,910 --> 00:43:14,770 actually in the public domain now of 973 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:17,920 course so what this really comes down to 974 00:43:23,340 --> 00:43:20,770 is look we can we can you know speculate 975 00:43:24,660 --> 00:43:23,350 until the blue in the face about what 976 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:24,670 did or didn't happen at whether the 977 00:43:29,190 --> 00:43:27,130 chiropractor was responsible ultimately 978 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:29,200 the things that we keep hearing from the 979 00:43:35,130 --> 00:43:33,010 CIA are the following lines there has 980 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:35,140 not been a chiropractic adverse event in 981 00:43:46,500 --> 00:43:42,490 a child since 1992 why Bing yeah five 982 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:46,510 years Rachel five years of university I 983 00:43:52,890 --> 00:43:48,850 mean we all know that there are risks in 984 00:43:54,570 --> 00:43:52,900 everything we do ok now the aviation 985 00:43:57,330 --> 00:43:54,580 industry knows this construction 986 00:44:00,570 --> 00:43:57,340 industry medicine and we do everything 987 00:44:02,670 --> 00:44:00,580 we can to me to get sick yes everything 988 00:44:06,830 --> 00:44:02,680 scanner but the court 989 00:44:10,530 --> 00:44:06,840 to the CIA there is so little risk of 990 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:10,540 anything involved in chiropractic that 991 00:44:16,050 --> 00:44:13,210 there's no need for what they have in 992 00:44:18,900 --> 00:44:16,060 every other industry which is an adverse 993 00:44:21,090 --> 00:44:18,910 event reporting system so the reason you 994 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:21,100 can't find reports of any adverse events 995 00:44:26,790 --> 00:44:23,850 is because they don't collect any data 996 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:26,800 they say it goes a little bit further 997 00:44:30,570 --> 00:44:27,970 than that because it's not that they 998 00:44:32,700 --> 00:44:30,580 don't collect any data they deny that it 999 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:32,710 comes along well there that took that 1000 00:44:37,020 --> 00:44:34,930 day so one of the things that was really 1001 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:37,030 quite horrifying also about how this was 1002 00:44:43,650 --> 00:44:40,930 handled was that the the report of from 1003 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:43,660 the report that was submitted to the 1004 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:46,770 chiropractic board was was done by a 1005 00:44:54,090 --> 00:44:51,970 chiropractor and in it the person who 1006 00:44:56,670 --> 00:44:54,100 did this report speculates that there 1007 00:44:59,010 --> 00:44:56,680 might have been child abuse involved now 1008 00:45:01,200 --> 00:44:59,020 shifting the blame totally shifting the 1009 00:45:03,180 --> 00:45:01,210 blame it is something that is quite I 1010 00:45:05,910 --> 00:45:03,190 think quite an abhorrence suggestion to 1011 00:45:08,310 --> 00:45:05,920 make when you know there's no evidence 1012 00:45:12,990 --> 00:45:08,320 to suggest that there is almost a 1013 00:45:16,290 --> 00:45:13,000 complete refusal to just simply address 1014 00:45:20,790 --> 00:45:16,300 the fact that there are basic risks in 1015 00:45:22,380 --> 00:45:20,800 anything we do they are wanting to they 1016 00:45:24,570 --> 00:45:22,390 want to be primary health care provider 1017 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:24,580 do something that you know it's 1018 00:45:30,540 --> 00:45:26,650 something that they explicitly stated i 1019 00:45:33,270 --> 00:45:30,550 think it was in the CIA's one of their 1020 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:33,280 public was near homes yeah if they want 1021 00:45:36,570 --> 00:45:34,570 it they want to act as primary health 1022 00:45:37,950 --> 00:45:36,580 care providers now if you're going to it 1023 00:45:40,110 --> 00:45:37,960 if you're going to behave as a primary 1024 00:45:43,020 --> 00:45:40,120 health care provider you need to provide 1025 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:43,030 the public with the reassurance of 1026 00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:44,290 knowing that you are doing everything 1027 00:45:49,710 --> 00:45:46,690 you can to improve quality and safety 1028 00:45:51,660 --> 00:45:49,720 now you know in no way am I saying that 1029 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:51,670 the health care industry medicine 1030 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:53,890 nursing any of us are perfect there are 1031 00:45:58,050 --> 00:45:55,210 a lot of problems in our in our 1032 00:46:00,270 --> 00:45:58,060 industries we have you no adverse events 1033 00:46:03,270 --> 00:46:00,280 we have you know they're there are the 1034 00:46:06,570 --> 00:46:03,280 same you know we're human beings we make 1035 00:46:07,830 --> 00:46:06,580 mistakes but we do our best to improve 1036 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:07,840 on that and in fact they've been some 1037 00:46:11,250 --> 00:46:09,610 fantastic reports over the last few 1038 00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:11,260 years there was a wonderful one which 1039 00:46:16,700 --> 00:46:11,910 came out 1040 00:46:18,470 --> 00:46:16,710 in 2004 the 2001 I think from the 1041 00:46:20,900 --> 00:46:18,480 National Institute of Health in America 1042 00:46:23,870 --> 00:46:20,910 called to err is human and it was a 1043 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:23,880 report which really recognized the the 1044 00:46:28,309 --> 00:46:26,130 alarming number of adverse events in 1045 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:28,319 healthcare and it set out to really 1046 00:46:32,510 --> 00:46:30,690 address that and and to bring down those 1047 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:32,520 numbers can I can I add something to 1048 00:46:36,079 --> 00:46:33,690 destroy because I think this is an 1049 00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:36,089 important point as well is that there's 1050 00:46:39,589 --> 00:46:37,680 a risk ratio that you have to deal with 1051 00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:39,599 as well so when we all go for surgery 1052 00:46:42,890 --> 00:46:41,250 for example we're told there's a risk of 1053 00:46:44,750 --> 00:46:42,900 things in there with your ass 1054 00:46:46,339 --> 00:46:44,760 anaesthetic the so doing everything you 1055 00:46:47,930 --> 00:46:46,349 make a decision based on that is it 1056 00:46:50,210 --> 00:46:47,940 better for me to get this removed or 1057 00:46:52,579 --> 00:46:50,220 should I just risk it the point that we 1058 00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:52,589 have with pediatric chiropractic is the 1059 00:46:56,930 --> 00:46:54,450 risks are too high where the benefit is 1060 00:46:59,480 --> 00:46:56,940 an ill have you seen better do anything 1061 00:47:03,020 --> 00:46:59,490 in the media and online on facebook of 1062 00:47:04,549 --> 00:47:03,030 baby babies being manipulated by well 1063 00:47:08,809 --> 00:47:04,559 the but this is the problem is on the 1064 00:47:12,260 --> 00:47:08,819 one hand you have them saying that what 1065 00:47:13,940 --> 00:47:12,270 they do is so inconsequential in terms 1066 00:47:15,859 --> 00:47:13,950 of the risk of harm that it's literally 1067 00:47:18,529 --> 00:47:15,869 like I've heard them describe it as like 1068 00:47:19,819 --> 00:47:18,539 touching the skin on a ripe tomato now 1069 00:47:23,049 --> 00:47:19,829 the thing is I've doing what you're 1070 00:47:25,789 --> 00:47:23,059 doing is is so in fact i have macfag 1071 00:47:27,529 --> 00:47:25,799 wrote the post fabulous piece in the 1072 00:47:32,289 --> 00:47:27,539 conversation the other day and and the 1073 00:47:37,940 --> 00:47:35,900 adjusting or fixing a subluxation in a 1074 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:37,950 child is no different to you know 1075 00:47:42,799 --> 00:47:39,930 touching the skin on a ranch motto then 1076 00:47:45,710 --> 00:47:42,809 are we are all not chiropractors you 1077 00:47:47,779 --> 00:47:45,720 know accidentally fixing subluxation 1078 00:47:50,390 --> 00:47:47,789 merely by handling our children and 1079 00:47:51,710 --> 00:47:50,400 passing them around yes yeah so either 1080 00:47:53,779 --> 00:47:51,720 you're doing something or you're not 1081 00:47:55,039 --> 00:47:53,789 doing so yeah yeah and if you're doing 1082 00:47:56,329 --> 00:47:55,049 something then there's a risk because of 1083 00:47:57,680 --> 00:47:56,339 what I think supposedly there are me 1084 00:47:59,569 --> 00:47:57,690 you're actually touching in a certain 1085 00:48:01,400 --> 00:47:59,579 way right when you think about it to 1086 00:48:03,710 --> 00:48:01,410 matter though there's touching the 1087 00:48:09,550 --> 00:48:03,720 tomatoes URI anyone here do I naturally 1088 00:48:12,820 --> 00:48:09,560 going squish kitchen and then 1089 00:48:15,220 --> 00:48:12,830 I think that's what happened and that's 1090 00:48:18,820 --> 00:48:15,230 something that quite well yeah I think 1091 00:48:21,430 --> 00:48:18,830 it surprises me I guess in a way it 1092 00:48:22,630 --> 00:48:21,440 surprised me i should say many years ago 1093 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:22,640 when i first started learning about 1094 00:48:29,860 --> 00:48:26,930 chiropractic and the outer gobsmacking 1095 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:29,870 lee ridiculous fundamentals behind it 1096 00:48:34,090 --> 00:48:31,850 because I did always thought growing up 1097 00:48:36,130 --> 00:48:34,100 that it was simply another branch of 1098 00:48:38,530 --> 00:48:36,140 Medicine indeed especially at you two I 1099 00:48:40,390 --> 00:48:38,540 thought I didn't think it was mental as 1100 00:48:43,810 --> 00:48:40,400 it is I just thought it was you know you 1101 00:48:46,540 --> 00:48:43,820 have Tommy trusts you have pediatrics oh 1102 00:48:49,210 --> 00:48:46,550 my god there's no reason to think I mean 1103 00:48:51,100 --> 00:48:49,220 if you are at any anyone lay person so 1104 00:48:52,990 --> 00:48:51,110 reason to think what they aren't that 1105 00:48:55,210 --> 00:48:53,000 there is not about a health profession 1106 00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:55,220 it's about an ideological belief is this 1107 00:48:59,140 --> 00:48:57,530 an animation before care is some 1108 00:49:00,880 --> 00:48:59,150 decision before benevolence yeah but on 1109 00:49:02,290 --> 00:49:00,890 top of that I think that it's kind of 1110 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:02,300 like with the anti vectors they forget 1111 00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:03,530 all the stories they've told so they 1112 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:05,570 can't remember what they've said because 1113 00:49:09,430 --> 00:49:07,610 you pointed this out to me Joe that the 1114 00:49:10,990 --> 00:49:09,440 CIA are claiming this never happened and 1115 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:11,000 nothing ever there was never real and 1116 00:49:15,370 --> 00:49:12,490 they demanded a retraction and apology 1117 00:49:17,020 --> 00:49:15,380 however there are records on a pro that 1118 00:49:21,870 --> 00:49:17,030 showed that this chiropractor was sent 1119 00:49:28,090 --> 00:49:21,880 to extra closets rightly actually um 1120 00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:28,100 when the weather report came out in the 1121 00:49:32,980 --> 00:49:30,650 media it said that the chiropractor in 1122 00:49:34,540 --> 00:49:32,990 question had been ordered as part of the 1123 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:34,550 findings of this investigation to 1124 00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:37,850 undergo a training with the pediatric 1125 00:49:45,010 --> 00:49:42,730 chiropractor now is that rageous because 1126 00:49:47,170 --> 00:49:45,020 what is P I mean because your 1127 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:47,180 chiropractic is an awesome my maze bump 1128 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:49,850 it's an absolute nonsense yeah why do 1129 00:49:54,430 --> 00:49:52,610 you need of iraq tomorrow i have my 1130 00:49:57,610 --> 00:49:54,440 mother my mother has been going to win 1131 00:50:00,460 --> 00:49:57,620 for 30 years or so and so I grew up with 1132 00:50:01,930 --> 00:50:00,470 the chiropractor's were always that was 1133 00:50:05,650 --> 00:50:01,940 the thing she was going there every week 1134 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:05,660 or so she sent me there when I was you 1135 00:50:11,530 --> 00:50:08,810 know young when I was 12 13 yeah I don't 1136 00:50:13,870 --> 00:50:11,540 wait 21 when I was village yeah and and 1137 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:13,880 just not because it right yeah it will 1138 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:15,890 see 1139 00:50:19,900 --> 00:50:18,650 um yea i meant not because there was 1140 00:50:21,430 --> 00:50:19,910 anything wrong with me but it was all 1141 00:50:23,049 --> 00:50:21,440 preventive you know the chiropractor is 1142 00:50:25,779 --> 00:50:23,059 probably in her ear oh yeah it's time 1143 00:50:27,910 --> 00:50:25,789 for Magadan to go a line to get yeah 1144 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:27,920 yeah have an adjustment did you know did 1145 00:50:32,859 --> 00:50:29,930 you when I used to go I used to line 1146 00:50:34,599 --> 00:50:32,869 them in then they get my jord my head go 1147 00:50:37,509 --> 00:50:34,609 look at looking something well we got 1148 00:50:41,019 --> 00:50:37,519 inside your pop yes yes they did all of 1149 00:50:43,299 --> 00:50:41,029 that yeah I got used to it if I went to 1150 00:50:46,329 --> 00:50:43,309 a GP for 30 years I'd be worried about 1151 00:50:48,099 --> 00:50:46,339 myself I absolutely I agree I agree I 1152 00:50:50,109 --> 00:50:48,109 mean and this is the this is the thing 1153 00:50:52,210 --> 00:50:50,119 with you know physiotherapist they say 1154 00:50:55,029 --> 00:50:52,220 well you know you come and see us three 1155 00:50:56,620 --> 00:50:55,039 or four times we don't want you to come 1156 00:50:58,059 --> 00:50:56,630 back we want you to get better and then 1157 00:51:00,400 --> 00:50:58,069 you look after yourself for the 1158 00:51:03,240 --> 00:51:00,410 chiropractor you're going never 30 is 1159 00:51:06,069 --> 00:51:03,250 it's just it's kind of like 1160 00:51:08,079 --> 00:51:06,079 psychologists and psychotherapist sort 1161 00:51:10,240 --> 00:51:08,089 or you know psychoanalysts also think 1162 00:51:14,769 --> 00:51:10,250 it's that kind of thing she's working 1163 00:51:16,599 --> 00:51:14,779 the base but it's that kind of thing you 1164 00:51:18,430 --> 00:51:16,609 know you treat something somebody gets 1165 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:18,440 better or you know you encourage 1166 00:51:24,940 --> 00:51:21,890 somebody just keep coming back our 1167 00:51:27,039 --> 00:51:24,950 alignment I can't think of a Segway that 1168 00:51:29,980 --> 00:51:27,049 Iran you wanted to bring politics into 1169 00:51:32,620 --> 00:51:29,990 the discussion no I know it's all about 1170 00:51:34,630 --> 00:51:32,630 science this is all about science so as 1171 00:51:35,859 --> 00:51:34,640 listeners regardless where they are in 1172 00:51:38,769 --> 00:51:35,869 the world would probably know there's 1173 00:51:41,079 --> 00:51:38,779 been new south wales or suffered a very 1174 00:51:43,390 --> 00:51:41,089 bad fire season now at the fact that we 1175 00:51:47,019 --> 00:51:43,400 call it fire season tells you that fires 1176 00:51:49,269 --> 00:51:47,029 are a regular thing in australia but bad 1177 00:51:51,249 --> 00:51:49,279 fire seasons are not that commonly the 1178 00:51:53,019 --> 00:51:51,259 upper everything is every now and then 1179 00:51:57,490 --> 00:51:53,029 what we have is particularly bad fires 1180 00:51:59,200 --> 00:51:57,500 yep and where the weather fires 1181 00:52:01,029 --> 00:51:59,210 basically burn out of control very often 1182 00:52:03,279 --> 00:52:01,039 there you know because the way we live 1183 00:52:04,990 --> 00:52:03,289 in australia is we live amongst the 1184 00:52:07,630 --> 00:52:05,000 trees and those trees that we chose to 1185 00:52:10,089 --> 00:52:07,640 live along stuff have a lot of oil in 1186 00:52:12,009 --> 00:52:10,099 them and and burn is burning his part of 1187 00:52:16,150 --> 00:52:12,019 their life cycle to a large extent it 1188 00:52:17,700 --> 00:52:16,160 just the way it is now with all these 1189 00:52:21,190 --> 00:52:17,710 files know that are happening now 1190 00:52:25,029 --> 00:52:21,200 senator adam van from the greens said 1191 00:52:27,269 --> 00:52:25,039 that came out in the press and basically 1192 00:52:29,729 --> 00:52:27,279 made the link between those files and 1193 00:52:33,599 --> 00:52:29,739 climate change and the UN representative 1194 00:52:36,569 --> 00:52:33,609 to climate talk climate negotiations of 1195 00:52:40,009 --> 00:52:36,579 some sort also mentioned on CNN 1196 00:52:42,059 --> 00:52:40,019 interview on CNN that these fires are 1197 00:52:43,559 --> 00:52:42,069 probably linked to calamity they 1198 00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:43,569 actually she was actually a lot more 1199 00:52:48,419 --> 00:52:45,249 careful than at a bank what she said was 1200 00:52:49,949 --> 00:52:48,429 that there's a general ling she but she 1201 00:52:52,109 --> 00:52:49,959 said there is no evidence that these 1202 00:52:55,019 --> 00:52:52,119 specific files again again with climate 1203 00:52:56,669 --> 00:52:55,029 change so she was she was quite careful 1204 00:52:59,849 --> 00:52:56,679 from a scientific perspective to present 1205 00:53:01,769 --> 00:52:59,859 it correctly but two things have 1206 00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:01,779 happened and what is that in general 1207 00:53:06,569 --> 00:53:03,729 people came out in the present 1208 00:53:10,319 --> 00:53:06,579 complaining about Adam Banton and how 1209 00:53:13,949 --> 00:53:10,329 how can you politicize this tragedy you 1210 00:53:15,630 --> 00:53:13,959 know so I have I have issues with the 1211 00:53:17,370 --> 00:53:15,640 greens and their attitudes and all that 1212 00:53:19,409 --> 00:53:17,380 but if you're not going to talk about 1213 00:53:21,899 --> 00:53:19,419 the cause of the fires while the fires 1214 00:53:25,019 --> 00:53:21,909 are burning or soon thereafter when are 1215 00:53:27,539 --> 00:53:25,029 you going to talk about so what you have 1216 00:53:29,279 --> 00:53:27,549 to wait until everybody forgets about it 1217 00:53:31,019 --> 00:53:29,289 until I'm no different to after you've 1218 00:53:32,219 --> 00:53:31,029 had a mass shooting in the US and you're 1219 00:53:33,929 --> 00:53:32,229 not allowed to talk about gun control 1220 00:53:37,039 --> 00:53:33,939 because it's not the right time it's 1221 00:53:40,109 --> 00:53:37,049 politicizing the it's politicizing the 1222 00:53:41,849 --> 00:53:40,119 tragedy so no this is not politicizing 1223 00:53:43,919 --> 00:53:41,859 the argument this is not politicized 1224 00:53:46,499 --> 00:53:43,929 politicizing the tragedy what it is is 1225 00:53:49,529 --> 00:53:46,509 debating a very important thing which is 1226 00:53:50,849 --> 00:53:49,539 the reason for the tragedy so any game 1227 00:53:55,319 --> 00:53:50,859 this is regardless would you agree with 1228 00:53:58,429 --> 00:53:55,329 that in banten or so so Greg Hunt who's 1229 00:54:00,899 --> 00:53:58,439 a new minister for the environment 1230 00:54:04,319 --> 00:54:00,909 similar in the press came out in the 1231 00:54:06,359 --> 00:54:04,329 press and he said obviously first I've 1232 00:54:09,749 --> 00:54:06,369 made that point about politicizing the 1233 00:54:12,359 --> 00:54:09,759 files but also mentioned that files have 1234 00:54:15,659 --> 00:54:12,369 been happening in Australia for years 1235 00:54:18,659 --> 00:54:15,669 and how does he know this because he 1236 00:54:20,370 --> 00:54:18,669 looked in Wikipedia and so you mentioned 1237 00:54:22,409 --> 00:54:20,380 that that's what he said on the BBC and 1238 00:54:24,029 --> 00:54:22,419 then he said so he said he looked up the 1239 00:54:27,149 --> 00:54:24,039 Australian bush fires and what he said 1240 00:54:29,849 --> 00:54:27,159 here and i'll quote it opened up so i'm 1241 00:54:31,439 --> 00:54:29,859 quoting greg hunt now it opened up with 1242 00:54:32,969 --> 00:54:31,449 the fact that bush fires in Australia 1243 00:54:34,799 --> 00:54:32,979 are frequently occurring events during 1244 00:54:38,789 --> 00:54:34,809 the hotter months of the year due to 1245 00:54:39,900 --> 00:54:38,799 Australia's mostly hot dry climate good 1246 00:54:44,180 --> 00:54:39,910 on you you can read 1247 00:54:47,720 --> 00:54:44,190 now see it's just one problem with that 1248 00:54:49,859 --> 00:54:47,730 he's only he's cherry-picked which is 1249 00:54:51,660 --> 00:54:49,869 hugely unexpected of course from 1250 00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:51,670 politician why would apologize jariabek 1251 00:54:55,319 --> 00:54:53,890 so the problem is this in the same 1252 00:54:59,970 --> 00:54:55,329 wikipedia entry just a little bit 1253 00:55:04,230 --> 00:54:59,980 further down it also says this that over 1254 00:55:07,589 --> 00:55:04,240 the hundred since 1851 there have been 1255 00:55:12,150 --> 00:55:07,599 forty major fire fire seasons okay of of 1256 00:55:15,510 --> 00:55:12,160 this kind 40 of them two of them have 1257 00:55:19,079 --> 00:55:15,520 been in November out of the 41 in April 1258 00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:19,089 and all the rest happen in December 1259 00:55:22,740 --> 00:55:20,650 January February and March which are 1260 00:55:25,289 --> 00:55:22,750 there well the summer seasons the summer 1261 00:55:28,500 --> 00:55:25,299 months in Australia and March is the 1262 00:55:31,829 --> 00:55:28,510 beginning of nodular this is the first 1263 00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:31,839 time that it happens in October so the 1264 00:55:38,010 --> 00:55:35,130 first time in 162 years of record of 1265 00:55:40,410 --> 00:55:38,020 kept record where we have this kind of 1266 00:55:42,329 --> 00:55:40,420 fire in October well now this is not 1267 00:55:44,220 --> 00:55:42,339 just in October this is fairly early in 1268 00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:44,230 it so it's like the firt it started the 1269 00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:48,400 fire started we embarrassed but more 1270 00:55:52,470 --> 00:55:50,890 than week of the day yesterday yeah so 1271 00:55:55,170 --> 00:55:52,480 yeah yeah so we're talking about 1272 00:55:57,750 --> 00:55:55,180 mid-october yeah yeah so this is this is 1273 00:56:00,240 --> 00:55:57,760 extremely early now before then remember 1274 00:56:01,829 --> 00:56:00,250 in a hundred and sixty-two years there's 1275 00:56:03,510 --> 00:56:01,839 been two in November and all the rest 1276 00:56:07,079 --> 00:56:03,520 were in December January us out of out 1277 00:56:09,690 --> 00:56:07,089 of 40 yeah so you can't sorry mr. hunt 1278 00:56:12,329 --> 00:56:09,700 you know despite what you might want to 1279 00:56:14,490 --> 00:56:12,339 think this is directly related to 1280 00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:14,500 climate change it may not have been 1281 00:56:19,559 --> 00:56:16,930 directly caused by climate change in the 1282 00:56:21,870 --> 00:56:19,569 sense of climate change lit the fire but 1283 00:56:24,420 --> 00:56:21,880 yes absolutely these things will happen 1284 00:56:26,220 --> 00:56:24,430 the science shows us that this this 1285 00:56:29,309 --> 00:56:26,230 these things will happen more often in 1286 00:56:30,809 --> 00:56:29,319 earlier so you can't say that it's not 1287 00:56:32,370 --> 00:56:30,819 linked of course it's not directly 1288 00:56:34,349 --> 00:56:32,380 linked it's not is force it's almost 1289 00:56:35,970 --> 00:56:34,359 impossible to show that direct causal 1290 00:56:38,279 --> 00:56:35,980 link doing climate change in any 1291 00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:38,289 specific event but you can draw the 1292 00:56:41,660 --> 00:56:39,970 statistical conclusion and that's 1293 00:56:43,460 --> 00:56:41,670 exactly what needed to happen this time 1294 00:56:46,790 --> 00:56:43,470 honey runs are 1295 00:56:52,089 --> 00:56:46,800 greg hunt yet don't get in my way when I 1296 00:56:55,130 --> 00:56:52,099 speak first of all in 1990 Greg Hunt a 1297 00:56:58,010 --> 00:56:55,140 one prize University price for his 1298 00:57:00,410 --> 00:56:58,020 thesis entitled attacks to make 1299 00:57:02,180 --> 00:57:00,420 polluters pay where he was actually in 1300 00:57:04,750 --> 00:57:02,190 favor of the carbon tax that he now 1301 00:57:09,050 --> 00:57:04,760 thinks is the worst thing since uh what 1302 00:57:12,470 --> 00:57:09,060 well since you only get out yeah um but 1303 00:57:16,339 --> 00:57:12,480 you see the thing is Greg Hunt picked up 1304 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:16,349 it on the internets so the Internet's 1305 00:57:22,550 --> 00:57:20,730 big bag of pic pic pizza on him again a 1306 00:57:24,380 --> 00:57:22,560 back end and this is this is what 1307 00:57:27,230 --> 00:57:24,390 happened in the next couple of days 1308 00:57:31,310 --> 00:57:27,240 after he made that statement the 1309 00:57:33,349 --> 00:57:31,320 wikipedia entry for Greg Hunt who's 1310 00:57:35,660 --> 00:57:33,359 changed several times before we keep ed 1311 00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:35,670 blocked it and for a few minutes there 1312 00:57:40,609 --> 00:57:38,130 on Thursday of last week it said since 1313 00:57:42,290 --> 00:57:40,619 the 2013 election hunters become the 1314 00:57:46,990 --> 00:57:42,300 minister for the environment he has 1315 00:57:53,329 --> 00:57:50,329 and then another another gym a bit 1316 00:57:55,339 --> 00:57:53,339 longer but worth reading he hunt he's 1317 00:57:57,980 --> 00:57:55,349 notorious for using Wikipedia to conduct 1318 00:57:59,920 --> 00:57:57,990 research on environmental issues despite 1319 00:58:02,900 --> 00:57:59,930 having access to fast bureaucracies 1320 00:58:05,150 --> 00:58:02,910 stopped by some of the finest and most 1321 00:58:09,349 --> 00:58:05,160 dedicated minds in the nation like some 1322 00:58:11,270 --> 00:58:09,359 total turd critics concede that is 1990 1323 00:58:12,500 --> 00:58:11,280 honors thesis on the necessary of a 1324 00:58:14,750 --> 00:58:12,510 carbon tax was probably more 1325 00:58:17,420 --> 00:58:14,760 academically rigorous in the manner in 1326 00:58:19,010 --> 00:58:17,430 which he can compose himself as one of 1327 00:58:21,020 --> 00:58:19,020 the most powerful people in the country 1328 00:58:23,300 --> 00:58:21,030 but others defend their characterization 1329 00:58:28,490 --> 00:58:23,310 of the Environment Minister as as an 1330 00:58:30,620 --> 00:58:28,500 utter winner no you see he it was wrong 1331 00:58:34,579 --> 00:58:30,630 he was wrong of him to two people on the 1332 00:58:35,839 --> 00:58:34,589 internet so obviously now his Wikipedia 1333 00:58:38,420 --> 00:58:35,849 immediately changed the rules and how we 1334 00:58:40,339 --> 00:58:38,430 can only be edited by registered editors 1335 00:58:41,730 --> 00:58:40,349 but I thought some more edits can I 1336 00:58:45,420 --> 00:58:41,740 write them a yes 1337 00:58:48,870 --> 00:58:45,430 please do so this is some more that have 1338 00:58:50,370 --> 00:58:48,880 since gone um he was his minister for 1339 00:58:54,510 --> 00:58:50,380 the environment blah blah he wouldn't 1340 00:58:56,460 --> 00:58:54,520 know science from his a-hole he is he's 1341 00:58:57,780 --> 00:58:56,470 a father member of the logistic Council 1342 00:59:00,000 --> 00:58:57,790 he is married and has a daughter and a 1343 00:59:14,450 --> 00:59:00,010 son he was raised as a eucalyptus tree 1344 00:59:18,690 --> 00:59:16,890 listeners may not dead we were joking 1345 00:59:20,250 --> 00:59:18,700 about this before but Mr some of this 1346 00:59:22,260 --> 00:59:20,260 may not realize and listening around the 1347 00:59:24,390 --> 00:59:22,270 world when we did have our changing 1348 00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:24,400 federal government two months ago three 1349 00:59:30,780 --> 00:59:26,170 months ago and when was it something 1350 00:59:32,970 --> 00:59:30,790 like that yeah um the new government has 1351 00:59:37,890 --> 00:59:32,980 not seen fit to appointed minister for 1352 00:59:40,650 --> 00:59:37,900 science yeah another very start a 1353 00:59:42,420 --> 00:59:40,660 sportsman Anzac Day minister to we've 1354 00:59:44,790 --> 00:59:42,430 had in second yeah we had one I think 1355 00:59:47,190 --> 00:59:44,800 he's resigned already of something yeah 1356 00:59:49,290 --> 00:59:47,200 long as we have a sports minister will 1357 00:59:51,150 --> 00:59:49,300 be all right also the monster for help 1358 00:59:53,250 --> 00:59:51,160 like the excellent health under next 1359 00:59:57,030 --> 00:59:53,260 sport yeah something yeah tokens for the 1360 00:59:58,859 --> 00:59:57,040 same yeah you I've noticed dr. Richie on 1361 01:00:01,290 --> 00:59:58,869 your facebook you but various pictures 1362 01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:01,300 of our prime minister or you comment on 1363 01:00:07,109 --> 01:00:03,970 them oh well I had to get to Twitter 1364 01:00:09,540 --> 01:00:07,119 accounts because I'm just leading up to 1365 01:00:11,849 --> 01:00:09,550 the election I lost 300 followers slip 1366 01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:11,859 do yeah I had now having a Twitter 1367 01:00:16,590 --> 01:00:14,170 account called at dr. pinko which is 1368 01:00:19,290 --> 01:00:16,600 where I we do that I wish about politics 1369 01:00:21,270 --> 01:00:19,300 or left-wing politics you've got a 1370 01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:21,280 twitter account called at dr. pink yeah 1371 01:00:26,099 --> 01:00:23,530 yeah and that's where I complain about 1372 01:00:28,500 --> 01:00:26,109 politics it's awesome because that makes 1373 01:00:33,450 --> 01:00:28,510 I can just rare rare to vent to nobody 1374 01:00:35,580 --> 01:00:33,460 but and follows me anything yeah so I 1375 01:00:37,650 --> 01:00:35,590 try to keep all of my left wing pinko 1376 01:00:40,500 --> 01:00:37,660 behavior to that account so they don't 1377 01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:40,510 bother people too much so if you want to 1378 01:00:46,109 --> 01:00:43,330 follow it go feedback we have a whole 1379 01:00:47,130 --> 01:00:46,119 other podcasts devoted to politics I 1380 01:00:48,529 --> 01:00:47,140 wonder if anyone's thought of that 1381 01:00:52,109 --> 01:00:48,539 before 1382 01:00:56,370 --> 01:00:52,119 the pink ozone dr. bingo chances can I 1383 01:00:58,620 --> 01:00:56,380 give a plug to a podcast sure um I I did 1384 01:01:02,729 --> 01:00:58,630 an episode of the herd mentality podcast 1385 01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:02,739 last week with David Hawks dr. David 1386 01:01:05,579 --> 01:01:04,450 Hawks which was great fun and we 1387 01:01:08,009 --> 01:01:05,589 actually did an episode all about 1388 01:01:11,339 --> 01:01:08,019 anti-vaxxers so I thoroughly enjoyed it 1389 01:01:14,729 --> 01:01:11,349 so will the herd mentality yeah vodka 1390 01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:14,739 great fun actually what you do good for 1391 01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:18,130 doing that well the disco music still 1392 01:01:21,059 --> 01:01:19,690 blaring outside I think it's time we 1393 01:01:22,829 --> 01:01:21,069 open the door to this cupboard and 1394 01:01:24,329 --> 01:01:22,839 escape because it's getting good I'll 1395 01:01:25,859 --> 01:01:24,339 say you want to go upstairs and watch 1396 01:01:28,529 --> 01:01:25,869 hot chocolate chocolate hot chocolate 1397 01:01:31,430 --> 01:01:28,539 patia leave grill hot choc will be here 1398 01:01:34,349 --> 01:01:31,440 tonight on the way here on the way here 1399 01:01:35,579 --> 01:01:34,359 Marcus asked me what me what music I 1400 01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:35,589 listened to and I mentioned amongst 1401 01:01:39,089 --> 01:01:37,690 other things eighties music yeah and 1402 01:01:40,950 --> 01:01:39,099 then we came in and as soon as we were 1403 01:01:42,299 --> 01:01:40,960 checking into the club the lady says did 1404 01:01:43,859 --> 01:01:42,309 you come for the show instead know who's 1405 01:01:47,130 --> 01:01:43,869 who's who's playing she said hot 1406 01:01:49,529 --> 01:01:47,140 chocolate a second I said I said be hot 1407 01:01:53,959 --> 01:01:49,539 chocolate she said yes I tended i'm too 1408 01:01:58,140 --> 01:01:56,700 here a bit earlier um and we were just 1409 01:01:59,819 --> 01:01:58,150 looking around upstairs we peered 1410 01:02:02,219 --> 01:01:59,829 through the door to the showroom and 1411 01:02:04,559 --> 01:02:02,229 there they were on stage rehearsing yeah 1412 01:02:05,969 --> 01:02:04,569 little good sound good to look good hot 1413 01:02:12,180 --> 01:02:05,979 chocolates and there you go it's amazing 1414 01:02:13,890 --> 01:02:12,190 what plastic surgery does good on I'm 1415 01:02:15,779 --> 01:02:13,900 good on them well Margot thank you for 1416 01:02:18,329 --> 01:02:15,789 coming along and sitting in with us to 1417 01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:18,339 be really interesting how we can see you 1418 01:02:21,539 --> 01:02:20,170 back maybe hopefully in a better you're 1419 01:02:23,069 --> 01:02:21,549 in your lounge room isn't it next time 1420 01:02:26,609 --> 01:02:23,079 that's right yeah I'm not cooking 1421 01:02:29,819 --> 01:02:26,619 Chinese doctor AG with your lovely 1422 01:02:31,739 --> 01:02:29,829 chilly earrings yes thanks for having me 1423 01:02:34,739 --> 01:02:31,749 Richard Joan Benoit thank you Richard 1424 01:02:35,910 --> 01:02:34,749 just reminded everyone to follow friends 1425 01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:35,920 of science and medicine on Twitter 1426 01:02:40,999 --> 01:02:38,890 please and just will have another 1427 01:02:43,769 --> 01:02:41,009 newsletter coming up in about a month so 1428 01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:43,779 hop on to the website and see what we're 1429 01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:46,210 up two runs ago vote for the skeptics 1430 01:02:52,450 --> 01:02:50,410 that's what I say mothers thank you what 1431 01:02:56,359 --> 01:02:52,460 thanks for having me Richard Hansen 1432 01:03:00,950 --> 01:02:56,369 and for this think tank in our cupboard 1433 01:03:02,990 --> 01:03:00,960 under the stairs nice i'm at storage p 1434 01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:03,000 it is looking at old speakers in here 1435 01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:37,270 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1436 01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:39,170 zone and I can't wait to see you down in 1437 01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:41,450 Canberra and a few weeks Tyron don't 1438 01:03:47,130 --> 01:03:43,490 forget there's all sorts of them fringe 1439 01:03:50,500 --> 01:03:47,140 events happening for free the convention 1440 01:03:53,290 --> 01:03:50,510 all the information national skeptics 1441 01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:53,300 convention dot org should be very 1442 01:03:57,510 --> 01:03:54,770 interesting it's going to be a bit of a 1443 01:03:59,920 --> 01:03:57,520 mixture of conspiracy theories JFK 1444 01:04:01,359 --> 01:03:59,930 Doctor Who because it's the 50th 1445 01:04:04,599 --> 01:04:01,369 anniversary of Doctor Who at the same 1446 01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:04,609 time lots of fun with Maynard and myself 1447 01:04:08,290 --> 01:04:06,650 and dr. AG and Iran so give and all 1448 01:04:12,250 --> 01:04:08,300 sorts of special guests and Chris French 1449 01:04:13,839 --> 01:04:12,260 from the UK and Chrissy Wilson Wow can't 1450 01:04:14,890 --> 01:04:13,849 wait to get there can't wait to get 1451 01:04:17,410 --> 01:04:14,900 there we're going to have a great time 1452 01:04:20,290 --> 01:04:17,420 and if you are coming along please come 1453 01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:20,300 up and say hello i love to have a chat 1454 01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:23,810 with you meet you and share a joke share 1455 01:04:30,370 --> 01:04:28,130 a drink share a bent spoon speaking of 1456 01:04:32,020 --> 01:04:30,380 bend spoons will be awarding the bent 1457 01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:32,030 spoon price at the National Convention 1458 01:04:37,180 --> 01:04:33,410 and who's going to win it this year 1459 01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:37,190 which which pseudoscience or psychic 1460 01:04:41,050 --> 01:04:38,810 type claim is going to win the 1461 01:04:43,150 --> 01:04:41,060 australian skeptics bent spoon award 1462 01:04:45,190 --> 01:04:43,160 well if you come along to the convention 1463 01:04:47,770 --> 01:04:45,200 and come to the dinner you'll find out 1464 01:04:50,859 --> 01:04:47,780 straight away coming up on next week's 1465 01:04:53,859 --> 01:04:50,869 show more from Maynard the recent 1466 01:04:57,309 --> 01:04:53,869 skeptic amp and i'll be giving a report 1467 01:04:58,599 --> 01:04:57,319 about the young scientists award here in 1468 01:05:00,670 --> 01:04:58,609 New South Wales which I'm attending 1469 01:05:02,650 --> 01:05:00,680 tomorrow as a matter of fact I'm going 1470 01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:02,660 down to give out some prizes and give a 1471 01:05:05,950 --> 01:05:04,250 little talk to the young scientist 1472 01:05:07,359 --> 01:05:05,960 really looking forward to that it's one 1473 01:05:09,670 --> 01:05:07,369 of the perks of the job I guess you 1474 01:05:12,609 --> 01:05:09,680 could say but until next week this is 1475 01:05:16,829 --> 01:05:12,619 Richard Saunders signing off from Sydney 1476 01:05:24,250 --> 01:05:19,240 you've been listening to the skeptic 1477 01:05:28,030 --> 01:05:24,260 zone visit our website at www skeptics